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Tim Free

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Reply with quote  #1 
Here are tuning frequency in Hz which to me helped to know which-octave. :  Shown; Zentapper Tuning, (but likely works for Megatar also[smile]
bass-bottom-fourths, player's point of view (thinnest bass string to your left.)  
 
Chart:
 
  On Fret 2, Chromatic note, Frequency in Hz.

  D3   A2    E2   B1   F#1    C#1     E4   B   F#3    C#3   G#2   D#2

  147  110   83   62   46     35      330  247  185   139   104   78

            BASS STRINGS               MELODY STRINGS
  THIN STRINGS          THICKEST      THIN STRINGS      THICKER
 

I use a (local saved copy) of the excellent "listening" tuner on seventhstring (link here)   (shhh, it's a secret - use FireFox won't work in chrome) which also shows frequency in Hz (not simply a letter note.)  

This helps me, a beginner, to know if my "G" is in the right octave and is not accidentally one whole octave too low, which is important for us-beginners that can't rely on any memory of what the tension should feel like, as we're that new.    Or, risks of accidentally one whole octave too High and... [ SNAP ] string breaks!!

Screen Shot 2016-05-19 at 5.57.25 AM.png 


Thus... I hope this helps someone! 

Tuners that merely show "letter" not as useful, especially when octave could be WAY off such as: 
  1. During string changes
  2. Arrivals of new guitars

If you're using some other string order, then help adjust listed
 string order as needed and reply here the use case, as it may help that next new person.


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Tapladder

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Reply with quote  #2 

Here is a complete pitch-vs-frequency table, covering the range of essentially all instruments:

http://www.contrabass.com/pages/frequency.html


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Tim Free

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Reply with quote  #3 
That's kind of amazing, that instruments go from about 40hz through about 1100 hz only, when humans can hear 20 hz to 20,000 hz.

It's interesting that our music isn't pleasing to humans in the higher ranges.


I'm sitting now windows open listening to spring birdsong and their notes, too, are mostly below 5000 Hz, with a typical range 3k-5k

Here are some instruments to compare, darker colors. Ignore the lighter color here (harmonics.)  from dak.com.   The chart is classic, so my Zentapper is probably the "violin" plus "bassoon" ranges on it.


Screen Shot 2016-05-31 at 4.42.52 AM.png 


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Tim Free

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Reply with quote  #4 
[QUOTE=Tim Free]That's kind of amazing, that our instruments go from about 40hz through about 2000 hz only, when humans can hear 20 hz to 20,000 hz.

It's interesting that our music isn't pleasing to humans in the higher ranges. I'm sitting now windows open listening to spring birdsong and their notes, too, are mostly below 5000 Hz, with a typical range 3k-5k

Screen Shot 2016-05-31 at 4.42.52 AM.png

On the chart, note range are dark colors (light color are harmonics.)   Classic, thus my Zentapper is probably "bassoon' plus "violin" ranges on here.

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ixlramp

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Reply with quote  #5 
The contrabass site is a little out of date with bass guitar strings.
Manufactured strings are available for G#00 13Hz, Kalium Strings sell a .266 for up to a 40" scale.
Here's Kaliums' Skip with the 40" scale Quake bass he makes tuned G#00 C# F# B

He has a 60" scale instrument coming tuned down to D#00 10Hz.
Octave 4 Plus made a custom .412 string for use at B000 8Hz.
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Tim Free

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Reply with quote  #6 
I think my chart was a little off.  I hate being wrong, but it seems like this is the correct tuning for Zentapper:

High notes (‘guitar’) 
 3   3    3   3    2   2       ZentapperFret
E2 A2 D3 G3 B3 E4      Note+octave
82 110 147 196 246 329       Freq in Hz
 
Low notes (‘bass’)  
 5   0   0    0    0   0       ZentapperFret
E1 E1 A1 D2 G2 C3     Note+octave
41  41 55  73  98  131      Freq in Hz


(the reason for that lowest string tuning on fret5 is that my tuner isn’t stable enough under 38hz, while e1 is a nice comfy 41.2hz)


Zentapper owners, please feel free to TELL ME HOW WRONG I am, I'd rather know now than have to unlearn chord patterns later, for sure. [smile]

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Tim Free

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Reply with quote  #7 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim Free
I think my chart was a little off.  I hate being wrong, but it seems like this is the correct tuning for Zentapper:

High notes (‘guitar’)   
(first 4 strings Fretted 3 on Zentapper =  standard guitar open.)
(last 2 strings Fretted 2 on Zentapper =  standard guitar open.)
 3   3    3   3    2   2       ZentapperFret
E2 A2 D3 G3 B3 E4      Note+octave
82 110 147 196 247 330       Freq in Hz
 
Low notes (‘bass’)  
(middle 4 strings open on Zentapper =  standard bass open.)
 5   0   0    0    0   0       ZentapperFret
E1 E1 A1 D2 G2 C3     Note+octave
41  41 55  73  98  131      Freq in Hz


(the reason for that lowest string tuning on fret5 is that my tuner isn’t stable enough under 38hz, while e1 is a nice comfy 41.2hz)

I hope it's right this time, I even made little videos of tuning it for reference.

Zentapper owners, please feel free to TELL ME HOW WRONG I am, I'd rather know now than have to unlearn chord patterns later, for sure. [smile]

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ixlramp

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Reply with quote  #8 
Here's my own frequency chart with all extended range bass and guitar open strings marked.

Octave number follows the convention of 'Scientific pitch notation'.

Frequency (Hz) / octave / note / ERB / ERG

987.77 5 B
932.33 5 A# Bb
880.00 5 A
830.61 5 G# Ab
783.99 5 G
739.99 5 F# Gb
698.46 5 F
659.26 5 E
622.25 5 D# Eb
587.33 5 D ...................................... D
554.37 5 C# Db
523.25 5 C

493.88 4 B
466.16 4 A# Bb
440.00 4 A ...................................... A
415.30 4 G# Ab ........ Ab
392.00 4 G
369.99 4 F# Gb
349.23 4 F
329.63 4 E ...................................... E
311.13 4 D# Eb ........ Eb
293.66 4 D
277.18 4 C# Db
261.63 4 C

246.94 3 B ...................................... B
233.08 3 A# Bb ........ Bb
220.00 3 A
207.65 3 G# Ab
196.00 3 G ...................................... G
185.00 3 F# Gb
174.61 3 F ................ F
164.81 3 E
155.56 3 D# Eb
146.83 3 D ...................................... D
138.59 3 C# Db
130.81 3 C ................ C

123.47 2 B
116.54 2 A# Bb
110.00 2 A ...................................... A
103.83 2 G# Ab
098.00 2 G ................ G
092.50 2 F# Gb
087.31 2 F
082.41 2 E ...................................... E
077.78 2 D# Eb
073.42 2 D ................ D
069.30 2 C# Db
065.41 2 C

061.74 1 B ...................................... B
058.27 1 A# Bb
055.00 1 A ................ A
051.91 1 G# Ab
049.00 1 G
046.25 1 F# Gb .............................. F#
043.65 1 F
041.20 1 E ................ E
038.89 1 D# Eb
036.71 1 D
034.65 1 C# Db .............................. C#
032.70 1 C

030.87 0 B ................ B
029.14 0 A# Bb
027.50 0 A
025.96 0 G# Ab .............................. G#
024.50 0 G
023.12 0 F# Gb ........ F#
021.83 0 F
020.60 0 E
019.45 0 D# Eb .............................. D#
018.35 0 D
017.32 0 C# Db ........ C#
016.35 0 C

15.43 00 B
14.57 00 A# Bb
13.75 00 A
12.98 00 G# Ab ........ G#
12.25 00 G
11.56 00 F# Gb
10.91 00 F
10.30 00 E
09.72 00 D# Eb ........ D#
09.18 00 D
08.66 00 C# Db
08.18 00 C
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Big George Waters

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Reply with quote  #9 
that's some real good info there  - while the man who sold me my Toneweaver that's set up in thirds provided me with hand written notes including mathametical formulas for proper string tension along with proper gauges for proper tuning, it brings me back to my days of studying physics in regards to making heads or tails of what has been written.
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Big George W

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WARR, Mobius Megatar [2], Syme, KYDD, Ovation [2], Steinberger [3], Tune, Schecter, Musicmakers [lyres, etc...], Ibanez SRAS7 “Ashula”

digitech, T.C. Electronics, ART, Lexicon, GK, Markbass, EA, Bag End, Guild/Hartke, SWR, EV, Radial, Furman

RAMSA, Alesis, Tascam, Fostex, Panasonic, Marantz, Sony, Roland, Yamaha, Audio Technica, AKG

Ampex, HHB, TDK Professional

 

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ixlramp

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Reply with quote  #10 
I've worked a lot with tension physics.
In case you haven't got a copy already, do download the D'Addario string tension .pdf which contains the equation and, usefully, 'unit weights' for all strings.
http://www.daddario.com/upload/tension_chart_13934.pdf
My pitches listed above are needed in the tension equation.

There is also a simple approximate rule for gauges that i derived from physics, that can be used when a string brand doesn't pubish tensions or unit weights.

This rule assumes that the density of the 2 strings is identical, of course in reality the density changes a little between different gauges.
String density changes a lot going from wound to plain steel strings, because one is a solid steel rod, the other has air gaps. So the rule can't be used for wound <-> plain steel.
The rule is:

///////
2 strings with the same scale length and at equal tension, will have their gauges in the same ratio as the ratio of their frequencies.

The frequency ratios of different intervals are:
Octave 2:1
Fourth 4:3
Fifth 3:2

So to calculate the gauge of one string from the gauge of the other string, multiply or divide by this number:
Octave 2
Fourth 1.333
Fifth 1.5
///////

So a set of equal tension bass strings, starting from a .045, could be roughly .045 .060 .080 .107. In fact there is a D'Addario 'balanced tension' set with those exact gauges.

Of course, equal tensions are not optimum for tappers, lower strings need more tension, but the rule can guide you whren choosing gauges.
Whatever the calculation result is, choosing the next higher gauge creates a rise in tension, the next lower gauge creates a fall in tension.

The gauge multiplier for an arbitraty number of semitones 's' is:
2 ^ (s / 12)

Minor third 1.189
Major third 1.260
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Big George Waters

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Reply with quote  #11 
Thank you !!
Sorry for the quick reply, holidays got me busy :)
Cheers

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Big George W

East Derby CT

WARR, Mobius Megatar [2], Syme, KYDD, Ovation [2], Steinberger [3], Tune, Schecter, Musicmakers [lyres, etc...], Ibanez SRAS7 “Ashula”

digitech, T.C. Electronics, ART, Lexicon, GK, Markbass, EA, Bag End, Guild/Hartke, SWR, EV, Radial, Furman

RAMSA, Alesis, Tascam, Fostex, Panasonic, Marantz, Sony, Roland, Yamaha, Audio Technica, AKG

Ampex, HHB, TDK Professional

 

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Big George Waters

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Reply with quote  #12 

ixlramp, I recall you asking me about tuning in 3rds I just forget where - but it's actually major 3rds that my Toneweaver is set up in.

Rather than write it all out, I'm posting two pictures of just a fraction of the information which came with my marvelous instrument.... hope this answers your question !!20190422_115630.jpg  20190422_115655.jpg 



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Big George W

East Derby CT

WARR, Mobius Megatar [2], Syme, KYDD, Ovation [2], Steinberger [3], Tune, Schecter, Musicmakers [lyres, etc...], Ibanez SRAS7 “Ashula”

digitech, T.C. Electronics, ART, Lexicon, GK, Markbass, EA, Bag End, Guild/Hartke, SWR, EV, Radial, Furman

RAMSA, Alesis, Tascam, Fostex, Panasonic, Marantz, Sony, Roland, Yamaha, Audio Technica, AKG

Ampex, HHB, TDK Professional

 

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ixlramp

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Reply with quote  #13 
Thanks.
So 2 regions of major thirds, stated here low to high with corrected octave numbers:

C1 E1 G#1 C2 E2 G#2 - E2 G#2 C3 E3 G#3 C4

The list of gauges also shows tensions on the right, tension falls from low to high from 34 to 17, which is similar to what i find ideal for tapping.
The previous owner knows their stuff.

I was hoping for a single region of major thirds, that could be (assuming D4 is highest practical pitch, which is the case for 34" scale):

F#0 A#0 D1 F#1 A#1 D2 - F#2 A#2 D3 F#3 A#3 D4

The very low F#0 would need a gauge of around .160+ (many string companies sell F# strings now), but F#0 is fully functional and audible, contrary to what many believe.

"The ToneWeaver series features the Ralph Novak fanned-fret system, with scale lengths ranging from 35 1/2″ to 31″ for the highest"
Since your highest scale is 31" the highest string could actually be tuned to D#4.
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Big George Waters

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Reply with quote  #14 

Very true, I have a Syme Guitar with I believe a 160 running up the middle which I have tuned to an A below a low B, and it goes up in 5ths from there.... the headstock angle is so great that it actually pulls that .160 quite taught tuned to A....

*The real trick then is proper amplification to getting that note to sound and project correctly, which is a whole 'nother topic of very worthwhile discussion... 


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Big George W

East Derby CT

WARR, Mobius Megatar [2], Syme, KYDD, Ovation [2], Steinberger [3], Tune, Schecter, Musicmakers [lyres, etc...], Ibanez SRAS7 “Ashula”

digitech, T.C. Electronics, ART, Lexicon, GK, Markbass, EA, Bag End, Guild/Hartke, SWR, EV, Radial, Furman

RAMSA, Alesis, Tascam, Fostex, Panasonic, Marantz, Sony, Roland, Yamaha, Audio Technica, AKG

Ampex, HHB, TDK Professional

 

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