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Tatsu

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Reply with quote  #16 
Concerning frets again.

I see where Emmett's rails are shaved down .01". This leaves a mesa about .025" wide on most frets though some frets in the low areas have a width .065" at their deepest.

I still don't know what the average fret heights are on a Warr, a Megatar, a Ziggy, or a Stick. Anyone know this?

The other technical detail needed is the average string height above the frets. Somebody can provide this information?
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Tatsu

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Reply with quote  #17 
Another idea I had was to take two 10 string sticks and shave off their belt hook support platforms and bolt them back to back. This would leave us with an instrument a little thicker than ideal (about 4.4mm+) but probably still functional. Make the tuning for the rear stick have the thick bass strings on the outside edges. Might be really easy and cool.
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Tatsu

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Reply with quote  #18 
Those double sided guitar/basses aren't using two necks but they're minis, so this reduced how much bend the tension will be able to cause. If we tried to take an existing 10 string stick and put strings on the back of it, there would be a balance of tension in both directions but would need serious reinforcement and strong material to accommodate 20 strings. Maybe the tension could be reduced by only putting six bass strings on the back instead of 10 and putting zero bass strings on the front but I like the option of both.

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Tatsu

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Reply with quote  #19 
Here's my zither pin design. Notice I've shown how a dual sided neck might look if as thin as a Stick, or more thick at half an inch each.

I understand how zero frets work, but the images I've seen of the modern sticks show fret markers in the wrong place if what I'm looking at is supposed to be a zero fret situation. I wonder if that's on purpose to confuse would be copy cats. Even side images don't look like they've got zero frets to me.

On the side profile on my design, above where it says 2.8 centimeters, I've shown a fret. This is incorrect if basing it on an image like the side shot I've included.

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Tatsu

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Reply with quote  #20 
Here's what zero frets are supposed to look like.

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Tatsu

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Reply with quote  #21 
How about really curved fingerboards, old fashioned Stick string insertion slots, electric ukeleles, or zero frets again?

That's all for now.

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Jtmart

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Reply with quote  #22 
Wow, looks like you've been thinking on this for a while. It will be tomorrow before I can do more than scan through your idea, lots of hings to consider.

Jeff

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Jtmart

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Reply with quote  #23 
The fret height on a megatar is .050", he lists in his specs that his fret wire is Stewmac fret wire #154. I assume Warr guitars are similar.

The chapman stick call their zero fret an X fret and it really doesn't seem to operate like a true zero fret, I think it just allows you to play what would be the open note on an instrument that isn't dampened.

Mark with Dragonfly instruments uses an innovative idea on his nut and headstock design, using a zero fret with the nut on top of the strings. Here

http://english.dragonflytap.com/gallery/finished/#

His way of dampening may reduce the ping you describe on instruments with no break over angle at the nut.

I have given thought to a V shaped neck for a more ergonomic design, might could accommodate strings on the back also. It's all still just in my head, haven't gotten very far. You would be playing completely blind though because you would not be able to see the left hand fretboard. (I have problems with a left wrist that was severely broken many years ago, even a standard guitar get very fatiguing quickly.)

Just my thought after a quick scan, I'll look at it more closely later.

Jeff

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jdavies

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Reply with quote  #24 
Wow, just wow regarding all the posts on this page. I've thought about fitting the Steinberger tuners that you posted to my Megatar before, but they don't make a version for basses.

Have you heard of/seen the Roberts Rotoneck before?

http://guitarz.blogspot.co.uk/2009/12/evolution-of-lubani-rotoneck-guitars.html

http://guitarz.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/ultra-rare-ultra-weird-roberts-roto.html

http://guitarz.blogspot.co.uk/2009/02/roberts-roto-neck-guitar-two.html



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TxTouchStylist

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Reply with quote  #25 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bergland
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tatsu
I've got an idea which is like taking two Chapman Sticks and removing the belthooks, then shaving down the foot of the belt hooks so that the two stick necks can be placed flush back to back, either bolting or clamping them together.

Tatsu:

Very interesting idea? Can you explain how you see this being played, or what kinds of creative advantages such a hybrid instrument might produce?

Don


Yes, very interesting idea. I had a similar idea many moons ago, I thought about bolting two Tapladders back to back and then playing "it" sideways, dual melody with the aspirations of playing some sort of Indian Classical music, never happened, couldn't get my hands on one Tapladder let alone two.....
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Tatsu

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Reply with quote  #26 
JtMart, don't know what having a v shaped neck would do for my project. Maybe you could explain the benefits. Actually, two sticks back to back wouldn't work without modification because the headstocks angle backwards and that would stop you making them flush against each other.

Concerning playing blind, a Gittler situation where it's just hard metal frets welded to an aluminum or steel spine would allow you to see through to the back. But sitarists look at the back of the neck when they perform and pro performers don't look at their instruments when they play. Sting is an example. Anyway, the frets on the front align with the frets on the back so you'd mostly know where you'd have to put your fingers.

I like the idea of keeping the string angle but angling the headstock forwards instead of backwards which would be something no one has ever seen. That would have a nut on top of the strings like you said. But it would also be possible to tie front strings onto the back headstock and visa versa.

Jdavies, never heard of the rotoneck before. That's really weird and cool.

So getting back to what I'd been talking about before, if going with wood, I saw someone said that jumbo frets transfer more energy to the neck because more fret comes into contact with the fingerboard. That would assist in getting a good sound.

I think for my project we could make a carbon thread reinforced neck with no truss on a neck as thin as a stick for a prototype instead of the half inch for each neck, and not make it have two necks. Just one plank of wood with a single skunk stripe on the back where wood was laminated into the groove made for inserting the reinforcement. Or use aircraft grade aluminum reinforcing rods creating a multiple skunk stripe situation on the back. Steel would work too but way too heavy.

For woods I like maple but laminated bamboo is both lighter and stronger. The problem with that is it gets bad reviews for its sound in guitar construction and you can't easily make laminated bamboo yourself. Maybe you know where to source some laminated bamboo nearby. I wouldn't mind if we used it for the prototype. Holdsworth uses Maple necks so I like those and it's really strong. Maybe making a multi-layered laminated maple would be even stronger although if just putting carbon threads in hard maple is good enough then there's no reason to go to the trouble of multi-layers of laminate. Anyway, I want something like these ideas.

btw Jtmart did you mean something like this kind of neck; the Angle-O-Saxon over at Krappy Guitars?

Dampening with very little angle behind the nut could work but maybe if you can do a Steinberger type situation, a backside tapping instrument can look like the second image.

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Tatsu

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Reply with quote  #27 
I was looking at how much space is routed out for the pickup housing on a stick and noticed that the mound for the belt hook is right behind it so that the instrument never gets too thin. I think our instrument would have to start as thin as a stick and then get thicker toward the bridge end so when we routed out space for pickups on both sides front and back, it would never be thinner than half an inch.

I've got four EMG's already but maybe the Bartolini's would be better. However, Holdsworth's signature Steinberger guitar uses Seymour Duncan SH-AH1 Humbuckers. A website Holdsy.com says they don't really make the sound that Holdsworth gets. Whichever pickups are used, they probably won't sound like they do when they're in guitars and could be "tuned" by someone who knows how to do that with the addition of capacitors or some such.

They said Holdsworth uses Alnico 5 magnets. They also said if you ask for the 'Allan Holdsworth Pickup', you'll get the double screw JB style wind (15K) which is twice the strength. They have students who do this all the time and are very disappointed. It should be half that strength.

He uses mirror-image coils and adjustable screws for extra midrange strength and excellent sustain. It's closest to a 59N wind with double rows of screws but puts it in the bridge position (its the only one for him, no neck pick ups). He also uses 250k pots and a resistor and also lowers his volume pot then boost his signal to the amp.

There's an image to the right of the railboard that you might not be able to see. But if you hover your mouse over that area and click it, you can see the stick pickup housing blue print from a side view showing distance to the back of the instrument. Yes, there's really an image there. It's just very white.
Seymour Duncan SH-AH1 Humbucker
Seymour Duncan SH-AH1 Humbucker
Seymour Duncan SH-AH1 Humbucker

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Tatsu

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Reply with quote  #28 
For guitars there's wiring issues and there's pickup height adjustment issues. Scroll all the way down to find the article on setting pickup height adjustment after you click on this link. http://www.guitar-guide-easy.com/lessons/itemlist/user/62-admin#.VNXbZCxanIU


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Tatsu

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Reply with quote  #29 
Bass pickup heights.

Several comments that stood out.

7/64" on the bass side and 5/64" on the bridge side in basses with vintage style pickups.

2 to 3 millimeters is good to start with on the bridge pickup and 5 to 8 millimeters on the neck pickup.

SD manuals say to adjust the pickups so they're about 1/8" away from the string when it's fretted at the last fret, which is similar to the Fender measurements.

Jeff Berlin used 2 Bartolini soap bar Hi-A pickups which became Bartolini later. And only the bridge pickup was functional.
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Jtmart

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Reply with quote  #30 
Yes, the Angel O Saxon is exactly what I was talking about, so much for an original idea.

I do not like hi output pickups, I have some SD AHB1's that sound horrible unless you turn the volume way down and boost to the amp. They may be great for shredding but not for a clean tone. My favorites so far are the EMG active Tele fronts that Emmit uses on some Sticks. My current build will have PAF style humbuckers with added active preamp, I hope it sounds as great as the setup on my guitar. I have Alnico 2 for the melody side and Alnico 5 for a punchier bass.

Room for the electronics is tough on a stick type instrument, especially if you have something back to back. One consideration could be mounting only the pickups and have off-instrument controls.

I'm still not totally clear on how your instrument is played. I'm assuming with the strings on the side because you said to move the belt hook to the side. Then, is there bass on one side and melody on the other or are there actually two 10-12 string instruments back to back?


A headless tuning system is a great way to get around the headstock issue, the only reason I haven't used one so far is the prohibitive cost. I haven't priced the Steinberger but the Hipshot starts around $400.00 for a six string. Rick Toone has all kinds of amazing innovations on tuning systems but I don't know how you would aquire anything of his. I'm sure the cost would also be considerable.

The truss rod situation may not be too big a deal, with opposing forces on each side they will tend to offset each other somewhat. A couple strong graphic or carbon fiber rods might be sufficient with no adjustment necessary. I would think the biggest danger would be some kind of "S" bowing that couldn't be adjusted. If the necks are equally ridged all the way up and down the fretboard it would be more difficult for that to happen. It is already going to be so stiff that it would take a monster adjustable truss rod to move anything without unstringing and putting it in a vise.

Just a few more thoughts

Jeff

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