An ultimate tapper - for me that is.

[loneguitarist]

Hi all. I don't post here much but I read the forums all the time, especially brendas thread about her custom tapper. I started a thread a while ago about wanting to build my own tapper, and at that time I was tapping on an Epiphone SG.
I was planning on getting a Carvin 6-string bass neck-thru blank and using it with a Hipshot 8 string guitar bridge. I finally managed to get hold of a dealer of custom carvin products within the UK and as I expected, to have one brought into the country, the neck price would suddenly confirm to what ends up as a ridiculous $1=£1 exchange rate that anything cool you want to get from the states takes on.
At that point I basically threw the plan out of the window as i realised, at that price, if I messed up anything it would be an expensive mistake what with it being a neck-thru, the whole thing would be ruined. So I carried on tapping on my little SG.
A few weeks ago, I went to the london guitar show and bought a nice 6 string bass for £180 and have currently taken up what I see as a bit of a geeky method of tapping, having a bass and a guitar both on straps and tapping bass with left handand guitar with right. After getting used to this I found myself wanting to do non-tapping licks too, which involved runs crossing from the guitar onto the bass.
I then thought of what would at the moment be the ultimate guitar, for tapping or otherwise, for me at the moment.
Combining a bass and a guitar on one neck would be excellent and I would love to build a guitar anyway, but I lack the skills and knowledge to do this, and I discovered a course which is run over here. I emailed the guy that runs it and he said something like this would be possible, so now I am planning to go on the course this summer and need to think about designs and I need your help. You are the experts and I am the complete noob so dont be scared to have a go at me if I'm being stupid. So here is my current plan:

12 strings - 6 string bass and a 6 string guitar seems like a good idea to me.
Fanned Frets - as pointed out on the megatar site, long bass string sound better and short guitar string sound better.
Bartolini pickups or something of the sort because I just love that sound.
Some sort of active preamp.
Switchable outputs for mono or stereo operation.
Piezos with roland GK output either just on the guitar side or on both the guitar and bass.

So there are my ideas, now I have some questions. Can anyone tell me the two different scales that a megatar toneweavers fretboard is fanned to? And also, what tunings can you suggest - I've been experimenting with tunings on the computer and I find it easier to have a slight overlap, making the guitar and bass sides more separate than to have it in a constant 'All fourths' tuning.

As with my old thread - I apologize for my post being so long but ahh well, watcha gonna do? ;)

Thanks all

Adam Williams

[jamsire]

Traktor will build all of the above for all of your wishes.

Just ask him. He literally - knows all.

When I got one of the first active pre-amps with my Toneweaver - I was talking smack for days - still am.

I have seven traditional midi guitars - the next Megatar - will be dual midi - and quite sexy.

Groove on!

[traktor]

Originally posted by loneguitarist
Can anyone tell me the two different scales that a megatar toneweavers fretboard is fanned to? Hello, Adam Williams,

The Mobius Megatar ToneWeaver goes from a low bass string ('B' open) which is 35 5/8" long, then shortens as you cross the six bass strings to about 33 1/2". The longest of the six melody strings is then about 33 1/4" and then it shortens down to 31" for the highest melody string.

This fanning arrangement gives super-vasty deep lows on the lowest bass strings, and crisp notes on the higher bass strings. The lowest melody strings have all the richness that we commonly hear on tapping instruments, but then you gain more focussed highs and a rounder tone on the higher melody strings because of their shorter length.

And it is true that Mobius Megatar now offers instruments with Bartolini pickups with dual active preamps, and instruments with Acoustiphonic Piezos and instruments with Midi outputs for melody and/or bass. (Our website hasn't completely caught up.)

If you build an instruments with fanned-frets, please remember that fanned-frets are patented, and this intellectual property belongs to Ralph Novak, and so please do him the courtesy of purchasing a license. It's not expensive, and then you are both ethical and in conformance with US patent law.

[Gustin]

I know that GraphTech has piezo and midi saddles. You could contact them and see if they could sell you a special individual set for the fanned frets.

Good luck. :)

[loneguitarist]

I think I would fan mine probably from 35" to either 30" or 31" so that if I break the highest few strings I can easily replace them with regular or baritone guitar strings until I have longer ones available - for this reason I plan to use locking tuners.

I looked at the Novax site and because my instrument is being built outside the US, and not being sold in the US (not being sold at all:p ), I do not have to pay liscence fees for it. I notice the angle of the fan is slightly more extreme on the nut of the toneweaver than on the bridge- I plan to have a either a higher angle on the fan of the individual bridge saddles (which I will probably purchase from Mobius) or have the nut and bridge angles equal so the 12th fret is horizontal. While looking around for information on Fanned Frets, I came across http://www.atlansia.jp/ which also has a patent on fanned frets which, I assume, is only valid in Japan.He also makes some interesting stuff like individual string saddles with a tremolo bar for each string, and single string pickups.

I think I am going to go for a slightly wider string spacing on the bass side than that of a Megatar, so it is wide enough for slapping etc, but not as wide as a regular bass string spacing. I havent decided yet whether I want a gap between the bass and guitar strings more than that of the bass string spacing, becuase i see on the megatar they are quite separate, but I also want to use this guitar for non-touchstyle playing so I will probably just go constantly through all the strings with a bigger gap between bass strings and smaller between guitar strings. I'm doing a few preliminary designs at the moment so I'll attatch them to my next post.

Thanks

[traktor]

The atlantsia site has some interesting designs. I don't recall the exact details, but I think that in the USA you cannot make a patent for something that already exists (or is patented) in some other country. Maybe Japan is different; I'm no expert about patents, and probably international considerations are complex.

The idea of spreading the bass strings and tightening the melody strings -- I'd very much like to see that, so I'd encourage you to try it. I'm pretty sure that the melody strings would still be playable if tighter, especially if you're a position player and tend to play melody strings mostly high up on the neck.

Many bass players have inquired about greater bass-strings spacing. While it's unneeded for touch-style play, it's needful for any technique requiring the insertion of a finger between the bass strings. Ricky Wade manages, but generally touch-style instrument string spacing is too close for this to be easily done. Perhaps you will find a working solution that more easily permits this technique.

(There are a few other issues to also consider, such as string height, which must be very low for best touch-style play and which is normally set much higher if snapping and popping are desired.)

When creating your instrument, whatever you decide on, I hope that you will post some pix for all of us along the way.

[loneguitarist]

Hey, thanks for all your replies, and its especially great to hear from you on this Garry, I'm somewhat of a fan of your music and technique, and I told everyone about you the other day in a presentation I did on ERBs and ERGs for a course I'm attending.

The reason I would like to have the shorter strings for the melody side is because to get thin enough strings to tune to those pitches is pretty hard, especially here in the UK, and also because I am used to the string tension on a guitar after playing for something like 9 years, but I am also quite eager to have a fanned fret instrument because I tried a fanned fret guitar a while ago and it felt very natural.

It felt so natural in fact, that it seemed strange to me, as I have quite small hands compared to other guitarists I know. Also, the fanned frets would solve the problem presented by any faster stuff I would be playing on the guitar side, and me rather not having the big bass fret reaches for my 'ickle hands.

I understand that on your Alden 12er you use .004" and .005" wire without the ballend on the string so Alden had to make a clamping system in the bridge, for something like that I suppose I could use piano wire but the clamping system would present a problem as I want to use Graphtech piezo saddles.

Thanks all,

Adam Williams

[Garry Goodman]

Originally posted by loneguitarist

I understand that on your Alden 12er you use .004" and .005" wire without the ballend on the string so Alden had to make a clamping system in the bridge, for something like that I suppose I could use piano wire but the clamping system would present a problem as I want to use Graphtech piezo saddles.

Thanks all,

Adam Williams

Hi Adam
Thanks for the positive words.The Adler 12-string is a prototype,and in 2003,when this bass began coming together,there were no super strings.
The clamping bridge allowed me to continue my R&D of useable materials for strings.
The original .004 and .005 was "off the shelf "wire.It broke easily.After two and a half years working with seasoned steel workers,I now have a rececipe for what I've termed "super strings". The .005-.008's will have ball ends on them soon and work for 36" and shorter scale lengths.

So with a tapping instrument,such as Traktor's,you can now have that Ab4 at 31".So we can eliminate the idea that one has to use a 23" scale to have an A440 string.It works on a normal guitar and sounds great.

[ixlramp]

Originally posted by traktor
but then you gain more focussed highs and a rounder tone on the higher melody strings because of their shorter length.

ah but surely simply playing on higher frets would give this prefered tone?

i can't see the need for a short scale for the higher strings, a long scale is always preferential in my opinion for a touchguitar (34 inches plus)

i tap a 6 string bass, the 'sweet area' for tapping is the middle third of the fretboard, so a short scale touchguitar seems too small to me

:)

[traktor]

Originally posted by ixlramp
ah but surely simply playing on higher frets would give this prefered tone? Both statements seem to be true. On the one hand, playing a light-gauge string high on the neck seems (to my ears) to have better tone than playing it low on the neck near the nut. And *also* when I string up the same strings on our fanned-fret instrument, I discover that once it's tuned up, the strings feel tighter -- especially the long, light-gauge melody strings -- and they sound more focussed.

You can test this for yourself. Take a tapping instrument with 33" scale (a common length) into any music store, and borrow one of their decent quality guitars with a 24'-25' scale. Play them alternately through the same amp. Play at the same fret, and/or play at a fret which is the same distance in inches from the nut.

Which has better tone?

Usually the shorter-scale guitar will sound better. At least, most musicians think so. (But not everyone. The longer and looser touch-style string will have a bit more chiming and a bit more richness, to my ear at least.)

One might ask why then do not touch-style manufacturers make shorter necks, to enhance the melody tone? As far as I can tell, having played instruments made both ways, if you have a non-fanned fretboard you can choose either to have --

(a) A long neck with great bass and a decent-sounding melody; or

(b) A short neck with great melody and rather poor bass.

To me, choice (a) seems better, and one can then work on the melody as best one can. Making the instrument stiff, of more solid construction, and permitting higher tensions all seem to improve melody tone. But nothing improves it as much as fanning the frets to shorten the high melody-string scale length.

In my belief, I'm in good company. The tone enhancement of fanning is obvious to many musicians. If you have the chance to play a ToneWeaver fanned-fret touch-style instrument for yourself, I suspect that you will agree.

i can't see the need for a short scale for the higher strings, a long scale is always preferential in my opinion for a touchguitar (34 inches plus) Good deal then.

[rjgoos]

A stupid question...

Are string gauges part of the "fanned fret" phenonomenon?

For example, if you want a string tapped (or fretted and plucked) at fret 12 to sound a particular pitch, you would need to use a heavier gauge string with a shorter scale instrument, and a lighter string gauge with a longer-scale instrument.


Jay

[BigDaddyPoo]

The only problem I see with fanned frets is that you can't string them up uncrossed in such a way that from top to bottom you have low melody strings to high melody strings then low bass strings to high bass strings. Which is the way that I like.

[traktor]

Originally posted by rjgoos
Are string gauges part of the "fanned fret" phenonomenon?

For example, if you want a string tapped (or fretted and plucked) at fret 12 to sound a particular pitch, you would need to use a heavier gauge string with a shorter scale instrument, and a lighter string gauge with a longer-scale instrument. On any guitar, whether parallel or fanned-fret, you have a range of choices regarding how heavy or light you want the strings to be.

For example, for guitar we have 'jazz' strings, which are heavy, and we have 'super slinky' which are very light. You can string your guitar either way.

If you have a fanned-fret instrument then you have the same options: you can use heavier strings, or lighter strings. I don't know of any magical formula, and I cannot say that one is necessarily better for everyone, just as blue is not necessarily a prettier color than green (though it seems so to me!).

I've heard of very few calculations for estimating string gauges, except for one thing -- best tone *generally* seems to come from strings as they approach breaking point. At least that's what I've heard.

[traktor]

Originally posted by BigDaddyPoo
The only problem I see with fanned frets is that you can't string them up uncrossed in such a way that from top to bottom you have low melody strings to high melody strings then low bass strings to high bass strings. Exactly.

Unless somebody wants to make a split fretboard in a 'herringbone' or 'v-shaped' pattern, the tonal advantage provided by fanned-frets is only available to folks playing in fourths, and with the lower-pitched bass strings located on the 'right side' of the fretboard (from the viewpoint of the musician).

I take this as a sign from God that man was meant to play touch-style in fourths. However, I do know people who feel differently. Perhaps they are wiser than I, or maybe they are Godless. Time will tell.

[GaryOpenhill]

the tonal advantage provided by fanned-frets is only available to folks playing in fourths, and with the lower-pitched bass strings located on the 'right side' of the fretboard (from the viewpoint [b]

Why only for fourths, traktor? Couldn't i use a fanned frets instrument for the M3 tuning?

Originally posted by Garry Goodman
[B]I thought my 12-string tuned in 4ths from C0 to G4 was a good sign.I love it.I can play piano music that without that amount of continuous ascending strings can't be played without interuption.
I can play a non stop melodic pattern dividing 7 octaves into 6 parts only because I have continuous 4ths.

I think that there are many ways to approach touch guitars.

Garry, the only "problem" i see with this setup, is that i'd have to play the "melody" side mainly with my left hand, wich i personally don't think is the best way. (as i understand it, you don't cross your hands f.inst. in the bach invention videos).
I think i saw Baudin cross his hands on one of the videos from namm06, but with crossed, there's the bumping hands problem and the wide fretboard problem. How do you work these things out?

[traktor]

Of course -- thinking more clearly -- one can tune in major-thirds, or minor-thirds, or pretty much anything that ascends all in one direction from lowest to highest. Good point.

And maybe it's not really a sign from God that man was made to play touch-style in fourths. Perhaps if we can catch God, we can ask her.

[ixlramp]

earlier i wrote:

"i can't see the need for a short scale for the higher strings, a long scale is always preferential in my opinion for a touchguitar (34 inches plus)"

hmmm i wrote this when tired, it seems a bit harsh and i now i have a different opinion. sorry guys!

i tried an experiment to explore this: i tapped some high frets on the highest string of my 35 inch scale 'bass', and then did the same while fretting the string at fret 7ish to simulate a shorter scale instrument: simulating a nut at fret 7

and yes.. a rounder tone, perhaps even more focussed?, well certainly different :D i put this down to the action being lowered at the point i was tapping

seeing as i play diagonally across the fretboard: low frets on low strings and high frets on high strings, i can see the advantage of shortening the treble side: it lowers the action for a sharper tap (the string resists less)

fanned frets also allow a larger number of strings and/or thicker treble strings

how about stepped frets?: for example the lowest string has 24 frets/34 inch scale, each higher string has one fret removed at the NUT end of the string, so each higher string has it's nut beside fret 1 of the string below. would have to be a bridge tuning system. just a crazy idea

[loneguitarist]

Originally posted by traktor
Perhaps if we can catch God, we can ask her.

I'll be sure to ask my mum that next time I'm up at home... what with me being jesus and all... ;)

Well thats quite enough of that sillyness.

I think I'll probably buy 2 sets of Megatar BassBottom strings to start me off, and then if they aren't the ones for me I can experiment with other strings.. and if I'm feeling extravagant could buy a set of Elixir 6-string bass strings for the bass side and 2 sets of Elixir guitar strings so I can mix gauges :p

I'm used to shorter guitar scales now, and on a tapping guitar I tried a while ago (it was an austin douglas 10) the guy had a capo on the 'guitar' side at about the 5th fret I think. This was quite nice in some ways but didnt feel very natural, having the bass part go on longer, so the fanned frets seem to offer the same benefits but also having a common nut so everything can be a bit more constant.

You all speak of these different tunings, major 3rds etc and I tried a stick once and that is just confusing for me:rolleyes: so I'm definetly sticking with either straight 4ths or split the bass and guitar section but still have both those sections in 4ths.

[traktor]

Originally posted by ixlramp
how about stepped frets?: for example the lowest string has 24 frets/34 inch scale, each higher string has one fret removed at the NUT end of the string, so each higher string has it's nut beside fret 1 of the string below. would have to be a bridge tuning system. just a crazy idea Yow!

Mikey likes it!

[GaryOpenhill]

Originally posted by traktor
Yow!

how about stepped frets?: for example the lowest string has 24 frets/34 inch scale, each higher string has one fret removed at the NUT end of the string, so each higher string has it's nut beside fret 1 of the string below. would have to be a bridge tuning system. just a crazy idea

Mikey likes it!

Or have the bass side 35", but the" guitar" side shorter?
But wouldn't that difference in scale length for each single string require totally different space between frets, for EACH fret on each string? What a mess that would be if every string had diff. scale length. It will be like a fenned frets, but every fret must be broken up 12 times.
I mean, if i understand things correct, that is why we have to fan the frets. Or else we could just keep the nut in a 34"-29" angle and have all the frets like a normal tapper. But then the intonation would be wrong, right?

What i don't undertand is why this doesnt apply when we use a capo, but if we shorten the scale lenght we have to recalculate the spaces between frets....Why is that? WHY????? (ouch...head hurts...must...stop....thinking....)

[GaryOpenhill]

Originally posted by loneguitarist

on a tapping guitar I tried a while ago (it was an austin douglas 10) the guy had a capo on the 'guitar' side at about the 5th fret I think.

Whats the point of doing that on a tapper? :confused:



You all speak of these different tunings, major 3rds etc and I tried a stick once and that is just confusing for me:rolleyes: so I'm definetly sticking with either straight 4ths or split the bass and guitar section but still have both those sections in 4ths. [/B]

I also like the idea of keeping the same tuning all over...AND having the strings all ascend in the same direction! If you decide to go for straight 4ths/no overlap, maybe consider inverting the strings, like BrendaM did on her 8 string? (unless you are like Garry and can play just as good with whatever hand!) For me, at least, that solved all my troubles (with tapping, that is..... still in debt ).

Btw, not too push anything on anybody, but the M3 tuning isn't very complicated. It's just having all the strings tuned like the 3d and 2nd guitar string. Thinking about that, i wasn't weird at all.

[loneguitarist]

Originally posted by ixlramp

how about stepped frets?: for example the lowest string has 24 frets/34 inch scale, each higher string has one fret removed at the NUT end of the string, so each higher string has it's nut beside fret 1 of the string below. would have to be a bridge tuning system. just a crazy idea

Reminds me of something... http://www.harrogate9.fsnet.co.uk/14.htm or maybe http://www.luthiers.nu/?show=91&album=Other+instruments+and+products/

I sort of like the stepped frets idea but it would take a lot of getting used to so I don't want it on my first 'real' tapper, but hey if one of you guys (or girls - hi brenda) wants to make (or have made) a tapper with stepped frets, tell me how it goes and I may be interested :D

Thanks all

[GaryOpenhill]

Originally posted by GaryOpenhill


What i don't undertand is why this doesnt apply when we use a capo, but if we shorten the scale lenght we have to recalculate the spaces between frets....Why is that? WHY????? (ouch...head hurts...must...stop....thinking....)

Forget about it. Figured it out. :P I'm so stupid.

[BigDaddyPoo]

I'm doing something similar to the stepped design on my ten string.

[GaryOpenhill]

Originally posted by BigDaddyPoo
I'm doing something similar to the stepped design on my ten string.

That should give all the benefits from fanned frets, except that the frets are straight? Sounds good to me.

[loneguitarist]

Originally posted by BigDaddyPoo
I'm doing something similar to the stepped design on my ten string.

What exactly are you going to do? Step them one fret at a time or just have a bass set going on further like the 14 string in the link I posted?

I've been experimenting with tunings on guitar pro, and I think I might go for an overlap. If I go in straight fourths it would be:
F#1, B1, E2, A2, D3, G3, C4, F4, A#4, D#5, G#5, C#6

The highest string on Garrys 12 is a G4 and thats a pretty thin gauge at long scale lengths so mine would be VERY thin and therefore hard to get. So the overlap seems like a good idea because it doesnt require special gauges but also so my hands don't get in each others way. With the overlap I think I would go with something like:
B1, E2, A2, D3, G3, C4, D3, G3, C4, F4, A#4, D#5 OR
F#1, B1, E2, A2, D3, G3, D3, G3, C4, F4, A#4, D#5

So I'll experiment a bit more, that last one with the split guitar and bass with the low F# appeals to me, and I know at the nut that F# would be so low but then if I was playing higher up the neck I would be able to reach lower bass notes more easily which is especially good for my lil' hands :p

[ixlramp]

or perhaps step 1 fret per 2 strings..

or perhaps for example on an 11 string bass keep lower strings full scale and just step back the higher strings above the D string

[billbowen]

of course, if you uncross your hands, "stepped scaling" makes much more sense. for illustration, on an 8 string 2 region tapper (4 bass, 4 treble) - say we choose to tune the bass like a regular 4 string bass. then we choose to tune the treble one octave higher. we arrange the strings, from closest to our face to closest to the left hand - g3,d3,A2,E2-gap-E1,A1,D2,G2. the g3 is the highest note, same as a guitar g string, the E1 is the lowest note, same as a bass E string. arranged like this, the bass and treble can each be whatever length is desired, and the corresponding hand (left bass, right treble) can reach all the notes in that region. as a bonus, if the bass is at 34' or 35' and the treble is at 25 1/2' , you can wrap your hand around the neck for the first 5 frets or so of the bass. whee!

i have been experimenting with M3 tuning on a 4 string bass, recently, as well. one thing about this tuning that can't really be understood unless you try it for a while is how"slippery" it is. by "slippery" i mean - each note/lick/scale/chord is available so many ways that sliding into or out of notes, or other expressive nuances like hammer-ons etc., is really enhanced. instead of the 2 ways typically available in P4, i can usually play a lick at least 3 different ways in M3. for touchstyle it seems especially appropriate, as every note of the chromatic scale is available within a 4 finger/fret range.

[GaryOpenhill]

:P

[ixlramp]

Originally posted by billbowen
as a bonus, if the bass is at 34' or 35' and the treble is at 25 1/2' , you can wrap your hand around the neck for the first 5 frets or so of the bass. whee!

yes a headless stepped instrument would have a neck that narrows at the lowest few frets, easier to play the low notes on the bass strings. it would look amazing!

apologies to loneguitarist for the thread tangent

[loneguitarist]

Originally posted by ixlramp
apologies to loneguitarist for the thread tangent

This thread has been very helpful and I am now tempted to go for the stepped frets thing but no! I will stick with fanned. I have now decided I am going to tune it simply to 6 string bass, then the same again an octave higher.

All this stepped fret talk made me think of a picture in a book I've got so I took a photo of the page and hosted it on my site - WARNING - BIG PICTURE - http://www.givemesomemoney.co.uk/images/coolguitar.JPG

Pretty cool huh?:p

15 strings is still not enough for some people :p so they may have to get their hands on some of these 28 string bass bridges won't they ;)

http://www.atlansia.jp/SPIRIT.28ST.JPG