Tuning gears vs. "piano" pegs

[rjgoos]

A month or two ago, a tapping instrument appeared on eBay, that did not have the typical mechanical tuning gears that we are all accustomed to on guitars. It had "piano" type tuning pegs/pins. Of course, zithers, autoharps, hammered dulcimers, etc. use such tuning pins commonly.

I am not particuarly interested in the piano type tuning pegs for any future projects, but I am curious how they work. How do they hold tension without just stripping out the wood into which they are installed?


Jay

[BrendaEM]

I haven't seen the instrument in question, but in a piano, pins the tuning pins go into a thick maple tuning block.The thickness of the block gives a lot of friction....

Although the strings on a piano are heavier, the tuning pins on a piano are used less because the strings are stretched across a cast iron plate.

The strings do touch the bridge, (which touches the sound board) which is/are made of wood, but but the length of the strings is more stable because the cast iron plate prevents the strings from being stretched as much by the wood, which couldn't support all those strings found in a modern piano (anyway.)

Tuning pins would make a nice light instrument, that may (not) tune as long as geared tuners. In some older pianos, people drip water to swell the wood around the tuners, which would seem to suggest that they don't last forever in pianos either.

There are oversized piano tuners here, would also suggest to me they don't last forever.
http://www.balaams-ass.com/piano/pinsize.htm

[Bearguitars]

I´ve realised this idea on one of my early tap guitar projects:

For a special " headless" design, save weight and several other little reasons....
After string up this axe, the mess have begin: to keep it in tune, stay in tune. Maybe good for a folk instrument and patient musicans.
After all, the tap guitar had receive a standart head and guitar tuners.

[Krappy]

i did this once, but will never again. once tuned, it stays very well in tune--but if there is any tuning problem on a gig, you need a wrench and a patient audience. on the upside it does save on length--and allows the instrument to fit in a standard guitar gig bag. another upside is expense--in stewmac's catalog i think they go for $.44 each. pretty low tech installation--drill a hole and screw away!

[rjgoos]

Yes, Kevin, it was one of your instruments that I was thinking of. I was just curious if these sorts of tuners would lose their effectiveness after a certain number of uses (the hole gets stretched, etc.).


To broaden the discussion a little:

One often sees, "headless" guitars, where the bridge and tuning mechanisms are combined. Stu Box's guitars have such mechanisms, as well as the NS/Stick, as examples in the tapping world.

Is there a place where a mere mortal can buy hardware like that? The guitar parts sites I frequent don't seem to offer them. Anyone got a link or two for me?

Yes, fall is coming, and I am already planning on making yet another tapping instrument or two this coming winter. It is an addiction. Maybe I should Kevin's lead, and call my basement operation "Even Worse Guitars."


Jay

[Krappy]

check out

http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Tuners/Guitar,_solid_peghead/1/Steinberger_Gearless_Tuners/Pictures.html#details

they are a bit expensive, but could likely be adapted (or copied) to offer an alternative

k

[rjgoos]

Well, I must be a dumb as a plank, because I looked at Stew Mac's pictures for several minutes, and I'm still not entirely sure how they work.

The following picture shows how to install a string:

www.musicyo.com/planet/graphics/gearlestnr.jpg

But that doesn't really show you how the winding unit works.


Jay

[Krappy]

there isn't a winding unit at all--there is no post to wrap around. there is a clamping mechanism and when you turn the knob, it just increases string tension--kind of tug of war style.

[rockola]

Originally posted by rjgoos
"headless" guitars (...) Is there a place where a mere mortal can buy hardware like that?ABM is the Rolls-Royce of headless guitar hardware, there are cheaper knockoffs around, and supposedly you get what you pay for (I have no first-hand experience).

Allparts (http://www.allparts.com/) is an ABM retailer. Better sit down when you get to the price tag.

MusicYo (http://www.musicyo.com/) sells parts for headless Steinbergers, which as we all know are the axes of choice of composer and tapper extraordinaire, Steve Hayden (http://www.tapguitar.com/blackloam2002.html).

Disclaimer: I don't really know anything about headless hardware, have never shopped from either of the above sources, etc. etc.

[PhoBucket]

I have been told that the Steinberger gearless tuners will not handle the tension of bass strings. IIRC, this was part of a conversation I had with tim at Timtone a few months ago.

Finding the right tuners and bridge is the biggest challenge I've faced when trying to design an instrument, although I think much of that may be caused by the restrictions I've put on myself for the headstock shape.