Tuning in Fifts?

[Fredrik]

Hi folks, recieved 8 strings for tunings in fifts by mistake. Have never tried more than five, and the oposite way (like on the stick), has anyone any good tips for learning some chords and scales for this tuning?

I'm going to give it a try when I'm waiting for my new fourths tuning strings.....

[Daniel Schell]

Wether on a 5ths or 4ths boards, the number of chords available is comparable to te number of observable objects on a clear night sky.
However,
There are two rules, generally accepted by the tappers:
- Chords on a board of 5ths will sound more open.
- On a two regions board tuned 5th/4th, the pattterns will be less readable than on a 4th/4th board.

Cordialement

Daniel

[Fredrik]

I found this page http://www.gootar.com/folder/guitartech.html

wich is quite good. It turns out that my tuning will be as follows:
Bb|F|C|G|D|A|C|D better known as the Crafty tuning (Trey Gunn) The two brightest strings are tuned up a third and a second, repeating string 6 and 4 two scales higher up. Giving quite nice cordal figures when the root is on string 6. I'm going to start there, and work my way forward. I'm concerned about scale playing on the 3 brightest strings, so will have to practice, practice and practice.

Hopefully, it will sound guite good with a 6 note chord spanning over 2-3 scales.

Fredrik

[Fredrik]

Turns out I have to use tuning ing fourths due to the strings I have....so, thats pretty well known to me I guess :-)

[rockola]

Originally posted by Fredrik
Turns out I have to use tuning ing fourths due to the strings I have....so, thats pretty well known to me I guess :-)

Wouldn't it make more sense to first figure out the tuning you want to use and then get the strings to match? Strings are disposable items anyway.

[Fredrik]

Rockola, if you read the first post in this thread, you'd see that I recieved the wrong set of strings. I was intending to tune it in fourths. And now that I have, I'm very happy with it :-)

Fredrik

[PhoBucket]

I have heard that SIT is a good source for ordering custom string gauges for those who are insterested. Fredrik, are you after a more pianistic approach? You mentioned somewhere that you were not trying to do the guitar+bass thing.

[Fredrik]

Hi Pho, I'm trying to do more "single voice" parts rather than two pieces mixed together. It's easier for me to play with others this way, and also to build up songs when home recording. (But, I recon I do some pianolike playing as well now that you mention it. Or atleast did on my old 10 string. )

Im trying to think more like a wide range bass OR guitarplayer when I compose music.

Fredrik

[Daniel Schell]

Hi,

If the discussion is going on 'tuning' I guess that the answer could be on www.clicmusic.be
button: tap-guitar
link : tuning

I am always glad to continue to help you once you read the material in there.
As you perhaps know, I have also designed some strings sets for the tappers. See button 'shop'


best

Daniel

[motormind]

Originally posted by Daniel Schell
Wether on a 5ths or 4ths boards, the number of chords available is comparable to te number of observable objects on a clear night sky.
However,
There are two rules, generally accepted by the tappers:
- Chords on a board of 5ths will sound more open.
- On a two regions board tuned 5th/4th, the pattterns will be less readable than on a 4th/4th board.


I heard about that last comment more often, but it strikes me as a bit silly. Why should it matter if it's harder to read music for a 5ths/4ths setup? Isn't it basically about the sound? And with proper effort, I am sure one can read for a 5th/4th instruments just as well as for all 4ths.

[rpmartino]

For certain kinds of music like Baroque music, I think the "sound" and "ease of reading music" go hand in hand, the linear/scalar lines in both the melody and bass not only fall much easier under the hands (oftentimes they are doing the mirror opposite of each other, like in the Bach inventions) but the music by nature often calls for closer voiced chords in the bass (which the 4ths allows more easily). Also, the bass strings in 4ths (being closer in gauge) can add a nice subtle consistency to the timbre of the sound.

I suppose if one wanted to focus on reading music on the Stick it would make sense to seriously consider a 4ths/4ths tuning, I think the brain has a much easier time making sense of the music when the genre of the music tends to have the hands doing similar things. The 5ths/4ths has advantages that are evident for other styles of music, particulary jazz style playing IMO.

Granted I'm not doing much music reading like I originally thought I would, my preference for bass in fourths is for other reasons, but sound of closer voiced chords and melodic bass lines are a major part of it.

[traktor]

Originally posted by motormind
... it strikes me as a bit silly. Why should it matter if it's harder to read music for a 5ths/4ths setup? ... I am sure one can read for a 5th/4th instruments just as well as for all 4ths. Well, yes, of course, with proper effort one could read (and play) fourths in one hand and fifths in one hand.

On the other hand -- I suppose that would be the third hand -- with proper effort one could learn to play thirds in one hand and a mixture of fourths and fifths in the other. Or to play fifths in the wrong direction with one hand, and a mixture of sevenths, sixths, fourths, and minor thirds in the other hand.

Or with proper effort one could learn to play bass and sing beatles songs in harmony like Paul McCartney, or one could learn to play fourths and fifths, while simultaneously playing trumpet using foot-pedals to work the valves (like Steve Hahn in Denver).

Or with proper effort one could play with sets of strings containing many different intervals, while reciting poetry by Robert Frost and Robert Burns, and balancing a small dog on one foot.

But the question is ... why?

Will the audience clap harder for the beauty of your music just because you made it difficult for yourself to play?

If the point is to play music, why choose paths that require elaborate effort, when a simple path is available with shorter learning time, the enjoyment of more-rapid progress, at the end of which is greater power and clarity?

If you're just the kind of guy that likes a challenge, then it makes sense to try the more complex path, for laughs. If you've already learned everything there is to know about the main street, then maybe it's time to explore the back roads.

Now of course there is plenty of room for many viewpoints, but IMHO a human is built a certain way, and a brain and the way fingers work is about the same for most of us. And the simpler path is to maintain only *one* set of scales in the mind, and to have that set of scales be identical for both hands.

With this approach, both hands can be trained simultaneously for greater learning speed, there is no 'learning interference' between the two hands, and we can take it as proven that bass in fourths is extremely powerful by observing the many hundreds of thousands of bass-players world-wide.

(This is the tuning Mobius calls 'BassBottom' and the learning method given in our 'Easy Touch-Style Bassics' method book.')

I submit that tapping instruments, and tapping methods, in parallel fourths -- or for some few people, mirror fourths -- are far easier on the mind, far faster on the fingers, and far more powerful once learned.

There. I've said it and I'm glad!

[motormind]

Originally posted by traktor

I submit that tapping instruments, and tapping methods, in parallel fourths -- or for some few people, mirror fourths -- are far easier on the mind, far faster on the fingers, and far more powerful once learned.

There. I've said it and I'm glad!

Well, I own a Chapman Stick and a touch guitar. Both have the combination of 5ths in the bass and 4ths in the melody, only the touch guitar is uncrossed.

I find that the 5ths tuning is great for playing bass parts on one side with two hands, since you have an immense range. For playing both sides at the same time it's more cumbersome, especially on the Stick. I have very large hands that bump into eachother quite easily. Needless to say, I use the Stick as a bass mostly ;)

[rjgoos]

I think the main thing to say, is that it is difficult to compare, for example, a Megatar in Traktor's parallel 4ths/4ths tuning, versus a Stick in Mr. Chapman's inverted 5ths/4ths tuning. The intervals that fall beneath the left hand are different, so the musical results will be different. It may not be apples vs. oranges, but it is at least plums vs. peaches. There are advantages and disadvantages to either, as Daniel Schell has summarized quite well on his tunings page.

That good results can be achieved with either, is indisputable.

I have no doubt that what Traktor says is true, if you come from a guitar background, a parallel 4ths/4ths tuning will be instantly familiar, and learning will be quicker. I will say, in defense of 5ths/4ths, is not that it is easier, but that it is different. The chordal intervals that fall under the left hand are different, and to my ear, very nice. By making the 5ths inverted, it's not so hard to go from one to the other. Perhaps I store tapping a 6-string (straight 4ths) and tapping a Stick in different parts of my brain, because I can go from one to the other without too much re-calibration.

I play mostly melodies with the right hand, and simple chord arpeggios with the left. 5ths/4ths work perfectly for that. If I wanted to sight read music, or wanted a more left/right counterpoint approach, 4ths/4ths would be better.


Jay

[GaryOpenhill]

Originally posted by rjgoos
I think the main thing to say, is that it is difficult to compare, for example, a Megatar in Traktor's parallel 4ths/4ths tuning, versus a Stick in Mr. Chapman's inverted 5ths/4ths tuning. The intervals that fall beneath the left hand are different, so the musical results will be different. It may not be apples vs. oranges, but it is at least plums vs. peaches. There are advantages and disadvantages to either, as Daniel Schell has summarized quite well on his tunings page.

That good results can be achieved with either, is indisputable.

I have no doubt that what Traktor says is true, if you come from a guitar background, a parallel 4ths/4ths tuning will be instantly familiar, and learning will be quicker. I will say, in defense of 5ths/4ths, is not that it is easier, but that it is different. The chordal intervals that fall under the left hand are different, and to my ear, very nice. By making the 5ths inverted, it's not so hard to go from one to the other. Perhaps I store tapping a 6-string (straight 4ths) and tapping a Stick in different parts of my brain, because I can go from one to the other without too much re-calibration.

I play mostly melodies with the right hand, and simple chord arpeggios with the left. 5ths/4ths work perfectly for that. If I wanted to sight read music, or wanted a more left/right counterpoint approach, 4ths/4ths would be better.


Jay

Correct me if im wrong here: There are really no chords you play on a fifth, that can't also be played witj fourtths tuning as long as you have enough strings? (so six strings would be minimum, i guess)

And one MAJOR thingy is that with a fifths tuning it is impossible to play intervals less than a major third-

and it is impossible to play ANY diatonic triad ( i mean a basic major c chord f. inst.), unless its in a "spread" way. (if you know what i mean)

I know we dont use thirds and less intervals in the deep bass parts, but its nice to have the option on the lighter once!

In addition: in a fourths tuning you can reach all notes in a diatonic scale from the same position, but that is not possible in fifths tuning, so you have to keep an eye ont even the simplest bass passages when you move your hans position.

ALso, ppl keep refferring to violin, viola and cello's as an argument for fifths tuning, but we can't really compare those with a long neck touchstyle guitar, can we? The onle other string instrument that can be compared are double basses (and guitar basses), and they are all tuned in fourths ( i THINK im right on this one). Its of course tuned like this because the strech is to wide for a human hand, but not on a viola. A cello has a much shorter scale length, more like a guitar, and thefore will have a shorter strech and therfor can't be compared to a long tapper.

I saw ned steinbergers BASS CELLO has the same scale length as a stick, BUT that cello is tuned in fourths..WHy? well, because Neddy thinks fifths are weird on that one, thats why!


THe only good reason i see for fifths tuning, especially for a guitar player, is that Fripp thingy, to break away from our weary patterns, that we so easily fall into.
But im wondering if theres not a better way....like f.inst. just breaking away from them intentionally, with out having to retune the whole thing. i dont know.

[traktor]

Originally posted by GaryOpenhill
... THe only good reason i see for fifths tuning, especially for a guitar player, is that Fripp thingy, to break away from our weary patterns, that we so easily fall into.
But im wondering if theres not a better way....like f.inst. just breaking away from them intentionally, with out having to retune the whole thing. i dont know. For most of us, just learning to play and play well is the major challenge, and worrying about 'breaking away' is not the big problem.

So the first thing to do, for most of us, is to bring about that basic proficiency. Hopefully quickly, and hopefully while having a lot of fun. My assertion -- having learned both systems -- is that attaining basic proficiency can be *greatly* accellerated when learning with identical scales in fourths, so that one maintains one clear mental model, one can train both hands identically and/or simultaneously, and one need not initially move either hand's position at all.

Now, once you've gained a basic proficiency, a damn good way to make sure you never develop ruts and never get stuck in a rut ... is to let other folks' minds guide your fingers. You can do this either by learning parts by ear off a recording, or by learning to read music and playing it. In this way, other people are forever driving your fingers, and these novel pathways forever educate your mind. When you are always driving new roads, you'll never get stuck in ruts of your own making.

That's my theory and I'm sticking to it!

[GaryOpenhill]

ANyone ever tried the major third tuning?

Im checking it out right now on a ten string. it is very cool i think.. The range is still from c1 to c6, but there is no overlap on the board. Its just like one whole ascending board, but with much more chordal possibilities than on a 8 string/ foruths f. ex.
and one can play simple basic chords like a C6 (c,e,g,a), which is impossible in its root form with strings tuned in fourths. Also all scales can be played without shifting position...like ...EVER. Must be fantastic for sight reading bach two voice parts.
Also, under every string on every fret, the tones that corresponds to a white key on a piano is marked with a little white dot. ALl the #/b (the black keys ) are left unmarked. (of course there are other normal neck marks too). The c-marks are a little bigger. Makes sence too me.
This type of marking wouldnt make any sence on a fourths tuning, since all the dots would mostly just line up in the same fret. Thats what i found out so far...

ANy thoughts on this?

[rjgoos]

The site of Ralph Patt is the most comprehensive I've seen on thirds tuning.

http://www.ralphpatt.com/Tune.html


I have thought of this a lot. Four frets are all that are needed to do all scales, no stretches or changes of positions. Ideal for the smaller-handed person. You need more strings, though.


Jay

[GaryOpenhill]

Originally posted by rjgoos
The site of Ralph Patt is the most comprehensive I've seen on thirds tuning.


nice! He also have on his site a bunch of charts of chords, progressions and scales for M3 tunings (yep, thats what its called, i've found out. So a bunch of guys have actually been doing this for years aparently...). Very nice.



I have thought of this a lot. Four frets are all that are needed to do all scales, no stretches or changes of positions. Ideal for the smaller-handed person. You need more strings, though.


Jay

Well, i figured you will reach the whole 5 possible octaves that a tapper does (c1 to c6), but theres no overlap doing this on a ten string. But no overlap can be cool too...like a cooler and better 8 string in fourths or something.

And, (especially if one should do this on a 12 string/ 14 string or more with overlapping), i still cant see where one can't play all of the same open chords too that we can on a fourth-tuned, and i thinking maybe even easier than on a fourths in general, since all tones are reachable.

Om a twelve string one it would maybe be best to tune the two sets in different tones just to break the positioning a little? If not string 4 and 5 would be exactly the same as 6 and 7.

c1 ,e1 ,#g1 ,c2 ,e2 ,#g2 + #f2, Bb2, d3, #f3, Bb3, d4 maybe.



I think its worth investigating a bit more!

(i did try out augmented fourths tuning about two weeks ago. Sounded sooo fine in theory. The best from the fourhts and fifths-world kinda. Turned out it totally sucked in reality! Well....now i know at least! TIme will show if the same is true with m3. )


(Jay, i think i edited my post after your answer! Sorry! But what do you think about the dot system?)

[rockola]

Originally posted by GaryOpenhill
But what do you think about the dot system?) As an aside: Fretboard markers, no matter what the system, should only be referred to occasionally. Tapping is a nerdy sport as it is, no need to compound the problem by crouching over the instrument and gazing at the strings instead of the audience.

That said, try it and see if it works for you. I don't think I'd like to play an instrument with a dot at every white note - I'd be confused. However, adapting the tried & true C-Dots(TM) method of Daniel Schell, it would be easy enough to try with some stick-on markers.

The instrument I'm building has 4 markers: at the 5th and the octave (it has a 24 fret fretboard). Less is more.

i did try out augmented fourths tuning about two weeks ago (...) Turned out it totally sucked in reality!Well, you do know it's the Devil's Interval, don't you?

[GaryOpenhill]

Originally posted by rockola


That said, try it and see if it works for you. I don't think I'd like to play an instrument with a dot at every white note - I'd be confused. However, adapting the tried & true C-Dots(TM) method of Daniel Schell, it would be easy enough to try with some stick-on markers.


Im testing it right now. The marks are very small, just behind the frets, so this way they're not really confusing, cause its easy to mentally block them out if one needs to. All the c's are double dots for reference.

First thing that hits me: wow thats easy to improvise. Dont have to think at all! (shut off that left side of the brain!)

The M3 is impressive, so far. One can actually play (i think) all 1,3,5,7,9,11,13 chords using both hands.

The fact that its easy to play all 7ths (1,3,5,7) in its basic form, in one hand, is also very nice.

Im writin roman giza now, to get his opinions. He's the only tapper ive found who plays M3.




Well, you do know it's the Devil's Interval, don't you? [/B]

ah...that explains it!

[Daniel Schell]

Hi

I was questioned about tuning all in Major thirds.
You could also think of tuning in seconds, m3, M3, 4, 4+ (also interesting) and 5ths.
There is a full discussion about these tunings in 'My Space'

I have tried all these tunigs for experiment.
Tunings in seconds or thirds are interesting only for specific projects because their range is limited.
Tunings in fourths and fifths have been discussed throughfully.
The tuning in 4+ (augmented fourths) is also worth experimenting.

Best regards

Daniel Schell

[GaryOpenhill]

Originally posted by Daniel Schell

Tunings in seconds or thirds are interesting only for specific projects because their range is limited.



I have great respect for Daniel Schell and he certianly knows what he is talking about , contrary to me, but still I think i must disagree on this at least for the M3 tuning - unless i misunderstand what is meant by range. Am i bad?

[Daniel Schell]

If you tune in M3 ,
suppose you start with C1 (just a reference) on one fret,
on the following 6 frets (suposing you have a 6 strings instr)
you will reach
C1 E1 G#1 C2 E2 G#2
So G#2 will be the last note reached

If you tuned in 4ths you would have reached
C1 F1 Bb1 Eb2 Ab2 Db3
So Db3 would be the last note reached


in Fifths
C1 G1 D2 A2 E3 B3
So B3 would be the least note reached

So I guess that you realised that with a tuning in M3 you reach a smaller ambitus than with a tuning in 4ths or in 5ths



Hope I helped

best

Daniel Schell

[traktor]

Here's an easy way to think about this reduced range. For the example we'll talk about only six strings. ...

If you're in fourths, and you detune to be in major thirds, then every string has one half-step *less* as you play up the chromatic scale. Thus in playing chromatically up the scale from, for example, string six to string one, you would lose 5 half-steps of range, because string number one is now tuned 5 half-steps lower than when you were in fourths.

If you then detune further to minor thirds, then you lose another half step for every string you ascend.

[GaryOpenhill]

Thanks to both traktor and daniel. Still i'm just too stupid to not just shut up.

I see what you mean, when you talk about range.

BUT ( and i'm not out to start a war about this....i'm just trying hard to find the pros and cons for M3 over 4ths and are thankful for all comments :) )

i still can't see how this makes the M3 tuning less interesting, because:

#1 M3 tuning on a 12 string, will still have exactly the same range as a 10 string with fourths. So the range problems is solved by just adding a string. The Megatar would be perfect for this, for instance.

(ADding a string to solve the range problem is the exact argument we use for using 4ths over 5ths, so its a good one. Of course when we get more than 14 strings, it looses some of its meaning, since it becomes physically harder to play the range anyways. And 14 strings and more are not vere common...yet.
Also, more than 12 strings will probably force us to play it uncrossed )

#2 If one decides to re-tune/re-string a 12 string from 4ths to M3, one will loose some range, yes. But it's still great for general purposes because the tones one can reach in M3, with one hand in the same position, without stretching over several frets, is 22 half-notes (on a 6 + 6 string). Thats still way more than on a piano! And we gain other great advangtages with it, like the fact that one now can reach more tones INSIDE theses two octaves, and can do more chords, like very basic chords that are difficult and impossible on a fourths. like maj7 (c,e,g,h) or minor 7 ( d,f,a,c). Dont we miss these very useful chords on a 4ths?

with some stretching over two frets for at least one of the fingers, one can reach over two octaves and more. Thats not so bad for one little hand.

I think its worth looking at, becuase it gives some fantastic advantges for two handed improvisation and easy sight reading. Btw, i'm waiting for a comment from Roma Giza who playes a 10 string stick tuned in M3. He for instance does Tarrega's 'recuerdo de la hambra' on it that is very impressive. I used to sweat over this one on my classical guitar - never got it down like he does.

[Daniel Schell]

Hi Gary,

first of all:
Please try the M3 tuning, play it and please record some music on it so that we can hear.
Where can we hear these recordings by Roma Giza ?
recuerdo del Alhambra...

"
#1 M3 tuning on a 12 string, will still have exactly the same range as a 10 string with fourths. So the range problems is solved by just adding a string. The Megatar would be perfect for this, for instance.
"
Adding a string... Instruments with more than 12 strings, - do exist (see Wolfgang Daiss's ) but they tend to go on the heavy. Plus if you add a string to an M3 to get the range of a P4; why don't you go to a P4, or add a string to a P4 or a P5.


"
Thats still way more than on a piano!
"

I wouldn't compare a tiptar with a piano.


"
And we gain other great advangtages with it, like the fact that one now can reach more tones INSIDE theses two octaves, and can do more chords, like very basic chords that are difficult and impossible on a fourths. like maj7 (c,e,g,h) or minor 7 ( d,f,a,c). Dont we miss these very useful chords on a 4ths?
"
You will find nice chords on any tunings.

Hope I helped

Daniel

[GaryOpenhill]

Hi Daniel.

Originally posted by Daniel Schell


Where can we hear these recordings by Roma Giza ?
recuerdo del Alhambra...




I found them on the stickcenter site: http://www.stickcenter.com/Cd/

Scroll down to Giza's CD, there's two mp3 tracks there. Spanish trad. I have seen one more mp3 from him on this site, but now i can't seem to find it again.




Hope I helped

Daniel

It's very helpful and also interesting to get the opinion of those who have studied the matter in depth. I've decided to give M3 some more time, so that i really can get used to it and "feel" it some more before i make a final decision .

Btw, the c-dot system is VERY helpful on the M3 and to me it seems like it's even more important here than on a 4ths.

Also i find that M3 is probably best for those who play uncrossed more than crossed, since it eliminates the need for a lot of stretching the fingers and so makes it more comfortable to play close to the edges of the fretboard.

[jean_alexis]

As a piano player, I found the idea of M3 tunning appealing, now you may say the advantage of playing a new instrument is to try something new :).

What I miss with the 4th voicing is the possibility to do 'clusters', that is the m2 and M2 you often find in some piano voicings that add some 'bite' to the sound.

But for now, i'll stick to 4th as I only have 8 strings...

Jean-Alexis

[Daniel Schell]

Answering to jean alexi about clusters
I open a new thread in the same forum
see 'clussters'

see you

Daniel