Update on DIY design project

[Fredrik]

Hi folks!
As you may rememeber I wrote some lines about a self developed custom design for an 8 string tapguitar. Well, the instrument is now in the making here in Norway, and I thought it would be ok to share a pic of the instrument the way it looks at the current stage of defelopment.

Here's some hard facts:
7 layer neck - maple, mahogany and wenge with palisander fretboard (uncertain if palisander is what this wood is called in english)
3 pice body - flamed maple, wenge and flamed maple front.
Custom brass bridge
2 custom pickups (from bassculture.de) switchable between humbucking and singlecoil.
Mono output
stringwidth: 8 mm at nut - 13 mm at bridge.
34" Scale

Body design by yours truly. All craftmanship and design of the head and neck by Norwegian guitar luthier Odd Helge Listerud, http://www.listerudbass.com/English/index_eng.htm

Trying to attach pic now, hope it works ;-)

Fredrik

[rjgoos]

Wow, this is going to be beautiful!!


Jay

[Fredrik]

Thank you Jay, hopefully it will sound good too :-)

Fredrik

[Fredrik]

The frets are now in place and so are the markers. We're waiting for the pickups to arrive now.

Fredrik

[rjgoos]

Fredrik,

Again, good job!

What tuning will this instrument have?


Jay

[Fredrik]

It will be tuned from low B and rising in ascending foruths. Have concidered tuning the 6 lightest strings like a guitar to benefit from conventional chords, but will try it out like this first. Have ordered strings from the good people at Warr guitars (thanks Jim!) and expect them here any day now. The heaviest string wil be .118, slightly lighter than the standard on the NS/Stick. Don't know if the bass will be heavy sounding enough, but it's an experiment.

Were are you situated by the way rjgoos?

Fredrik

[MatthewL329]

it's cool to see the progression! keep posting pics, I can't wait to see the finished product and hear a few clips. when you're done, would you mind giving us a breakdown on the cost of building this instrument?

[Fredrik]

I can tell you the cost right now: Close to 2300,- USD. wich is the grand total for the project. I havent got any prices for parts, apart from the mic's. They where appr. 500. The rest is included in the total. And, if I might say so - this is not bad at all! I recon the quality of the craftmanship and materials used doesn't stand back from any similar products available on the marked today. In addition to that, I've only waited for 8 weeks so far since placing the order, and it will be finnished around easter. So concidering production times from other manufacturors, shipping costs/time (and norwegian VAT/sales tax +25%) it's one heck of a deal for me.

I'm already thinking of new designs, but it will be some time before I can afford it. If there are people interested in my designs, I'd be happy to help them out though :-)

Earlier in the process when only the neck and fretboard was in the making I visited the luthier and diskussed materials to use, ergonomics, dots, placing of mic's and so on. It was so cool to be a part of that process. The next step will be to place the strap holders so insure a good ballance when playing.

Well, I'm rambeling on - sorry. Let me know if you have any other thoughts or q's :-)

Fredrik

[rjgoos]

Fredrik, I am in Fargo, which you cannot find on a 2-page map of the United States, because Fargo is always in the fold, towards the top of the map.

The reason I am posting no pictures of my homemade project, is that I am doing it all myself, and I am not very skilled in the shop, and learning as I go. I figure that my third or fourth instrument may be good enough to show in public, and I have only completed #2. I am still getting to know it as an instrument, as the ergonomics are unlike my other tap instrument (uncrossed tuning). I will post an MP3, hopefully this weekend. It sounds OK, even with an inexpensive pickup.

One does save a LOT of money by doing it yourself. I have less than $200 in Prototype #2, including the tools I had to buy to finish the project. However, Fredrik is getting a far more beautiful instrument.

Jay

[Fredrik]

Fargo sounds very much like the title of a brilliant film I saw a few years ago :-) I've heard that there is a lot of Norwegian heritage in this area?

I'd like to build my own instrument one day too. Seeing how the luthier I'm using working gives an idea of how one could perform these tasks. The most critical area to me would be the fretboard, seing as it needs to be so accurate. Listerud (the luthier) is using a handy ruler with marks for every fret, adapted to 34" necks, combined with a circular saw and a jig for guidance.

But at this time, self building was out of the question. I was thinking about getting a second hand warr og NS/Stick, but there was none for sale and it turned out that second hand prices was close to or higher than production of a new instrument.

As a comment to the price i should mention that the dollar (USD) is lower in exhange rate than normal compared to the Norwegian Kroner (NKR), so the total (in USD) is probably 10 -20 % higher than it would be under "normal" circumstances.

Fredrik

PS: I still think you should post some pics of your projects!

[Godsmonkey]

The instrument reminds me of my old Dean Caddy guitar. Very nice!

[Fredrik]

Yeah, the lower horn certainly has some similarity from a 2D view :-) I haven't seen those guitars before actually.

It's interesting to see how the guitar shapes repeats it self through thime. Just like any fashion I suppose.

My main inspiration was the warr, fender jaguar and also gibson firebird.

[Fredrik]

Tre bridge is almost finnished and mounted now, have a look :-)

[Fredrik]

Here's one of the wooden knobs. We've decided to go for low and wide knobs to get an ergonomic action. Easy to spin and superlow action.

[Fredrik]

Very exited today! The microphones arrived from Germany, made from palisander and another wood i'm not certain of right now. The palisander mathces the fretboard in material. Here's a pic of the body with all accessories. The two nuts inidates where the jumbucking/singlecoil switches will be located.

[Fredrik]

....and here's a microphone closeup:

[PhoBucket]

Fredrik,


Wow. Your instrument looks great. Very classy design.

Who is the luthier?
Who made the pickups?
Was that bridge custom machined?
What is the control layout other than the coil splits?
Is the output mono or stereo?


I can't wait to hear some clips.

-Pho


PS. This is my first post. This website rawks!

[Fredrik]

Thanx Pho!


"Who is the luthier?"

A very nice guy called Linsterud here in Norway. You can see some of his other works at this page http://www.listerudbass.com/English/index_eng.htm

Who made the pickups?

They are made at http://www.bassculture.de/

"Was that bridge custom machined?"

Yes, by Listerud him self.

"What is the control layout other than the coil splits?"

I have no clue :-)

"Is the output mono or stereo?"

Mono.

We're working on some slight changes to the body shape now. Will ceep you posted on this thread.

Fredrik

[PhoBucket]

OK. Apparently I can't read. All of my questions were answered in the first post in this thread. I guess I just got excited by your cool looking tiptar. Sorry. :rolleyes:

[Fredrik]

no prob pho, I'm very exited to and totaly understand!

But, "tiptar"?
You know, I think I'd rather just call it a gitar :-)

[rjgoos]

Regarding the term "tiptar"

Two-handed tappers have yet to come up with a single term that covers all instruments. Daniel Schell has used the term "tiptar". Traktor has suggested in his book that the term "megatar" could be used. "Touchstyle" instruments could be used. "Tap guitar" or "Tapping guitar"?


Jay

[Fredrik]

Well, all stringed instruments can be tapped, so to me it's logical to call my 8 stringer a guitar. More specificaly a wide range guitar perhaps. I think terms as tiptar, megatar, touchstyle instrument are too constructed.

And for the sake of the argument; is Megatar more than a guitar? In some manners yes, more strings, bigger neck and so on. But the playing styles seems more limited than on a electric guitar.

Tap guitar is mayby, from my viewpoint (being closest to the north pole of all of us perhaps?) the simplest and most "true" name for an instrument design purely for tapping. But, the warr, the NS/Stick and similar designs can also be strummed and picked. So calling them a tap guitar might be wrong too.

The only insturments limited to tapping (being a bit narrow viewed) is to my knowledge the stick and the mobius. And further on, when you're tapping a conventional bass or guitar, we still call it a guitar even though the technique for playing has changed.

When I'm trying to explain my design to "non tapping persons", i describe it as a guitar, with a wider tonal range. Then I try to explain the technique I use, and then people say "Eddie Van Halen"? And I have to admit "yes something like that" only with less hair and not the spandex.

If anything else than a guitar, I vote for the Tap guitar.

But, from another view, why not focus on the tonal capabilities of these instuments? I like the term "Full range guitar" for my 8 stringer, going from bass strings to guitar strings. Or "wide range guitar" as mentioned, or mayby Multistring Guitar?

Oh well, rambeling on as ususal......

[PhoBucket]

With the tuning scheme starting on a low B and ascending in 4ths, it may be more accurate to call it an ERB (Extended Range Bass). Of course, that could be one of those top-down / bottom-up arguements.


Check this out:

Adler 12-String (http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=161298)

I think I'm going to stick with Hyper Ultra Guitar (Mega Edition), or HUGME for short :D

[traktor]

Originally posted by Fredrik
Well, all stringed instruments can be tapped, so to me it's logical to call my 8 stringer a guitar. More specificaly a wide range guitar perhaps. I think terms as tiptar, megatar, touchstyle instrument are too constructed.

And for the sake of the argument; is Megatar more than a guitar? In some manners yes, more strings, bigger neck and so on. But the playing styles seems more limited than on a electric guitar.
<..snip..>

If anything else than a guitar, I vote for the Tap guitar.
<..snip..>
I've elsewhere suggested that megatar was a good name for certain kind of instrument. Specifically, a "megatar" is defined as an instrument with *two separate sets of strings*, designed to be played by touch with both hands simultaneously. So what most folks commonly call an 8-string bass would not be a megatar, by definition.

The "megatar" word is designed to be memory easy, with the "more than a guitar" (mega+guitar) idea built into the word construction. Is it more than a guitar? Well, since you *could* play it with a pick and your left hand on the melody strings, that would be a guitar, and the rest of the instrument would be more. So to me it seems self-evident that a megatar could be described as more than a guitar.

However, you've got an important good point in there. When you play by touch (on any instrument) you gain some things, but you give up one thing. You give up the expression which is embodied in the striking technique; that is, you give up expression caused by picking. For example, on a guitar you give up the difference in sound by strumming near the neck versus strumming near the bridge. On a bass, you generally give up the expression caused by snapping or popping. Is what you get more valuable than what you give up? For most of us here, yes.

"Tap Guitar" is perhaps the best description of *all* instruments whether megatars or not, whether 6-string or 8-string or 10-string or 12-string. It refers to any stringed instrument, and infers playing by touch. And Daniel Schell's "tiptar," if I understand him rightly, is a made-up word to stand for "tap guitar," so it's a pretty good generic description for all our instruments.

Just my 2 1/2 cents worth.

[The half a cent is because I am extremely authorized in the case of the "megatar" word.] :)

[rjgoos]

I vote for HUGME


Jay

[Fredrik]

It would be a conventional 8 string bass if the lighter strings where heavier, however they are much thinner - and have almost the same tonal qualities as a 10 stringer in a baryton melody tuning. Meaning that it covers all of the tonal scale. So, it's not really a bass the way I see it.

[PhoBucket]

..::SEGUE::..

Back to the topic of this thread...

I can't wait to hear the finished product.

Are the 2 knobs going to be volume for each pickup, or volume/tone, or something else?

-Pho

[Fredrik]

We (me and Listerud) discussed if we should have any tonal adjustment in addition to the volum and switch between humbucking and singlecoil. We agreed to keep it down to a minimum. All sound going in to the pickup, is going out using the dedicated volum pot for each pickup (the two knobs). The swithces are for the (you guessed right...) switching between humb./singl. sound. It still leaves plenty of options of combining sounds from the two pickups....

I too can't wait for it to be finnished an plug into my pod xt pro :-)

[Fredrik]

Argh, nightmare, just lost a post here, sooooo, here I go again in a shorter version....

Attached is the new bodyshape, more compact and "strong" the way I see it. What do you guys think?

[PhoBucket]

I HATE IT. CHANGE IT BACK!!!

:D Just kidding



So the main change is that you shortened the bout where your right forearm would be if you played it "guitar" style, right?

It makes the body appear a little more wide than long. I think I like it more the new way, but will reserve judgement until I can see a pic of the full instrument to examine the proportions.

With either body shape this instrument will look stellar.

[rjgoos]

Fredrik,

I hope that, in the next year or two, you have the opportunity to go to the European seminar in Belgium, with your finished instrument. I'm sure the people there would be most interested in it. It looks great.

R. Jay Goos

[Fredrik]

Thanx Pho, and yes you're right about the changes. In addition were changing the knobs to small wenge ones, same material as in the body. It'll all be done in the next couple of weeks now, so can hardly wait to get it all finnished.

Im also very interested to see the final proportions of the instrument, and not the least - what will it sound like and what will the ergonomics be like?

Some might say we've started in the wrong end here, not trying out different mic positions, different string spacings, neck design and so on, but hey - you got to start some place. The next one might be different in some areas, or maybe exactly the same. I'll know much more in two weeks time, and will keep you posted.

[Fredrik]

I was just looking back now on the work being laid down before we started the production of the guitar. I did around 40 - 50 hand drawn scetches over different body shapes I could imaginge being used. It's strange how you start to miss the creative design part of the process when the final product is about to finnish. It's sort of an anticlimax, when just looking at the design. The attached drawing shows my final consept imported into my CAD software and measured. The neck in this drawing has the right proportions to the real life model and was used as a measure to fit the body to the right size. Interesting it is to see how a little pencil drawing finally turns into something so tangeable.

[PhoBucket]

Originally posted by Fredrik
It's strange how you start to miss the creative design part of the process when the final product is about to finnish. It's sort of an anticlimax, when just looking at the design.

My father builds/restores/modifies old cars. He has spent up to 10 years working on a single car, but as soon as the car in finished he sells it. For him, the fun is in the building and creation more than the driving.

That being said, I bet it won't feel anti-climactic once it has strings on it and you plug it in for the first time.

[Fredrik]

Originally posted by rjgoos
Fredrik,

I hope that, in the next year or two, you have the opportunity to go to the European seminar in Belgium, with your finished instrument. I'm sure the people there would be most interested in it. It looks great.

R. Jay Goos

Thanks Jay!
I'll certainly concider a seminar when I get warmed up on my new tapper.

[Fredrik]

So, almost there! Going up to Listerud during easter to go trough final set up and attachment points for the strap. No full body picture this time I'm afraid. It's been 8 weeks now since I first placed the order, so a deliverytime of 9 weeks total aren't that bad at all I recon.

[PhoBucket]

Stunning, Fredrik. 8-9 weeks for a custom instrument is not bad at all.

[Fredrik]

Agreed, actually, I think It's nothing less than impressive. I can't imagine how people waiting more than 12 months for an instrument can cope with the wait. But, maybe nedless to to say, I'm not very patient when I've decided to get something new :-)
Looking forward to post some soundfiles so you can check out the sound. Just have to get my gear back from the shop (damn usb on my pod xt broke....)

[thomact]

I've got a bout of GAS (gear acquisition syndrome) that needs curing. Conveniently, I might be filming an advert with my band that pays pretty darn well. Assuming that goes ahead, I'm looking round at options for a 2nd 8 stringer.

If you don't mind me asking, how much did this instrument cost you?

Thom...

[Fredrik]

No prob, asking is ok :-)
It's not too cheap I'm afraid - around 2300 USD. But compared to buying a tapper from known manufacturors of similar configurations, it's a cheaper way for me (living in Norway and having to pay tax, shipping and customs wich ads up the price with about 30-40%) to get a handmade custom than buying a new one from the states.

Another thing to take into conciederation here is the aspect of designing an instrument your self, where all parts are custom built (apart from the tuners and two swithces) to my personal specifications. This is normally a quite expensive way to go - and compared to that I actually think the instrument was very decent priced.

Fredrik

[Fredrik]

So, here's my first comments on the instrument after playing it for a vew hours.

The microphones does really change the sound character when switching from singlecoil to humbuck sound, and the position of the mic's influences the sound as well. I havent worked out how many sound options there is yet, but I think 8.

The neck is extremely smooth and sleek. As a curiosity Listerud told me that the palisander used in the fretboard was bought in the 60's by some guy that used it for living room tables. But, it was never used for that purpose - now 40 years later, it's on my tapper :-) I'm very happy with the 8 - 13 mm spacing I chose also. I've tried to play it like a bass and it works well for that purpose too. The brigde pickup really brings out a funky growl when finger playing.
Guitar like fingerplaying on the brighter strings also works good.

So, does it work as a tapper?
Definetely. I've chosen a slightly higher string setting on the heavier strings to bring out a punchy and full bass sound. It is a bit harder to play this way, but the benefits in the sound compensates this for me.

The craftmanship in the instrument is excellent, without any exeptions.

I'm waiting for my sound gear, so no clips are available so far, but I will post some eventually.

I'll post a new review here later, when I've played the instrument for a little while.

Fredrik