what's the advantage

[mrINFINITY]

This may seem kind of like a silly question to most of you guys, but I was just curious what advantage there was in tapping an instrument (in your eyes) over just fingerpicking it.

I had a warr phalanx 12 string for about a month last year and I sold it because I didn't really think it sounded all the spectacular. I mean, it was a great instrument, but the *tick*tick*tick tapping tone started to bother me pretty quick.

I mean you could always fingerpick a stereo instrument like Charlie Hunter does if you want to get that sound like you're playing two instruments at one. In my opinion the tone is much better on it.

Technically I don't see a great advantage either, I can play almost as many notes/voices at one time fingerpicking as I could tapping, and they were more clear.

Are most of you guys out there approaching a tapping instrument from something other than playing fingerstyle guitar? I guess that's my real question. Don't get me wrong because I think two-hand tapping is a great idea, I am just interested in your personal thoughts about the tone/playability vs. fingerpicking. chao!

[rjgoos]

Mr. Infinity wrote:

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This may seem kind of like a silly question to most of you guys, but I was just curious what advantage there was in tapping an instrument (in your eyes) over just fingerpicking it.
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I got my first guitar in 1963, and began serious lessons in fingerpicking in 1973, and got a Stick in 2003, so I guess I'm about as qualified as anyone here to answer this*.

I don't know if there is single, killer advantage. They are just different. I think the Stick is a lot of fun to play, and a new musical challenge. It blends well with my wife's classical guitar. The 5ths/4ths offer new tonal combinations. I call it my "anti-Alzheimers" program, because it is forcing my aging brain to do new things.

Perhaps the one indisputable advantage, is that, without open strings, it is easier to change keys. If you have figured out something, say, in drop D tuning on a guitar, it would be difficult to change to C...you would need to re-tune and probably totally re-arrange the piece. On a touchstyle instrument, you just move your hands two frets and keep playing.

Any one note tapped on a touchstyle instrument is not going to be as full, tonally, as the same note plucked on the sweet spot of a good acoustic guitar.....just as playing middle C on a piano is not going to be as full, tonally, as middle C played by a master violinist. Any one note on a Stick or Warr may not sound as good as the same note on a Taylor or Martin....but (as with the piano), you just have a much larger range of notes available to you with the touchstyle instrument.


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I had a warr phalanx 12 string for about a month last year and I sold it because I didn't really think it sounded all the spectacular. I mean, it was a great instrument, but the *tick*tick*tick tapping tone started to bother me pretty quick.
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Yes, the -tick-tick-tick- is bothersome. Some instruments have it worse than others. This would be a good point for discussion. Is it due to heavier strings (and resulting higher string tension)? My Stick has very light strings (and consequently very low string tension), and the -tick- is not a problem, as is shown on the MP3 listed below.



Jay

A very unfair comparison follows. Track 1 of my fingerpicking CD was "Poor Wayfaring Stranger", played on an Alvarez-Yairi DY-85:

http://members.ifmcs.net/rjgoos/Public/Music/CD-RJGoos2001/


The first excerpt on my six month-progress MP3 on the Stick was the same song:

http://members.ifmcs.net/rjgoos/Public/Music/Stick-Music/six-month-stick.mp3


I say "unfair" because the former was produced after almost 30 years of fingerpicking, versus only six months on the Stick.

One is not better than the other, they are quite different instruments. You wil notice, though, at the end of Stick version of Wayfaring Stranger, I went up an octave to play the melody. This would have been almost impossible with a fingerpicking version, with its dependence on open strings. Also, notice, no *tick*tick* on the Stick recording.

[BCroad]

I treat each technique as a tool and beleive that you shouldn't give one up for just another. Whatever it takes to get the job done, and, they have their own sound characteristics. I am a standard player for years that has always used tapping for whenever I heard that sound or a particular movements.

[Uberbass]

The biggest difference (as I see it) is, touchstyle requires one finger to produce one note. Fingerstyle (unless it's one of the open notes) requires two fingers to produce one note. For me, that is an advantage that allows more freedom, range and independence.

For me, (and presumeably the other touchstyle, tapper type people) it's not about a tone tradeoff. It's just a different sound.

I'm still not sure what the definition of "good tone" is. For me "good tone" probably means something completely different than it does to Traktor, Ray, Billy, Emmett, or anyone else.

I remember reading an interview with Trey Gunn, and another one with Leo Kottke. They both remarked that they didn't care for Stanley Jordan's tone. I think that there are probably others here who would agree with that, and still others who would disagree.

b

[traktor]

Originally posted by mrINFINITY
< ... snip>I mean you could always fingerpick a stereo instrument like Charlie Hunter does if you want to get that sound like you're playing two instruments at one. < ...snip> Just a nitpick ...

Yes, I suppose one could always just play like Charlie Hunter.

Of course, that raises the question: Have you actually *watched* Charlie Hunter play? The man is going major pretzel-finger! The guy is a monster player. He also has forearms almost big as Popeye, and I can see why.

If you ever get the chance .. See Charlie play. Play, Charlie, Play! See, see, oh see!

[mrINFINITY]

"Of course, that raises the question: Have you actually *watched* Charlie Hunter play?"

Actually I have, he's a very impressive player. Although nothing he does is really any more incredible than other 6 string classical guitarists i've seen. He is actual a really small guy also. The neck width at the nut on his guitar is 2 1/16". His neck isn't much wider than a standard classical guitar. Yet his guitar still looks huge on him. I am not sure if the size of his forearms has anything to do with him fingerpicking though ;).


>The biggest difference (as I see it) is, touchstyle requires one finger to produce one note. Fingerstyle (unless it's one of the open notes) requires two fingers to produce one note. For me, that is an advantage that allows more freedom, range and independence.<

With the use of open strings and slurs you can just as easily play two parts at once. There would definately be an advantage in things that rjgoos pointed out. Like being able to shift to different keys easier, or being able to spread voicings further apart. Like playing the melody up an octave. As far as independence i'm not sure because I can play bach two-part inventions on my 6 string classical fine. That would even be pushing a tapper. That and the tuning most tappers use definately does not work in favor of classical music. I think Adam Fulara with his double neck guitar/guitar definately hast he right idea for that type of thing.

I guess if you were going to play jazz music with a walking bass line and chords a touchstyle instrument might be an advantage.

>BCroad<

I respect you a lot because you've helped me before and you seem to really know what you're talking about. I remember you telling me before that you just fingerpick without your nails which still amazes me. I gave that a try and was never able to get the tone I wanted.

>rjgoos<

Great answers ;)

[BCroad]

Wow, thanks for the kind words mrINFINITY. If you heard some of my sound clips you may change your opinion!!! It does work for me and I can switch between every technique and of course grab a pick whenever. I find you just have to really lay into it in a different way.
By the way mrINFINITY, if you remember me emailing you a while ago, you told me what you thought of Novax. I based the last part of my decision on getting one thanks to your opinion, I probably would have waited a lot longer time if I hadn't talked to you, so the repect is mutual.
And for anyone out there, I've found Novax guitars are great for tappping as well, just a little different.
I've always wanted to post that and just kept forgetting to. And to follow up with what Traktor said about Charlie, I've got the DVD of Charlie Hunter, Right Now Live. Great stuff, and not just from a technique standpoint, though that goes without saying. It's the music that stands on it's own, even if you didn't know how he plays, excellent compositions.

Bryan >^..^<

[mrINFINITY]

BCroad,

I noticed your picture on the novax website last week under the players section. I was like "oh that *******". haha :) I'm jealous now. I would have bought one if I could afford it, that's why i'm trying to build one now instead. Have you made any recordings with it yet? I got to play one at Ralph's shop on two occasions, they are killer guitars.

I think I may have to redo the one i'm building. If I do i'm probably gonna just take the next step forward and add a low B or a high A string or something. I think a low B would work great if the frets were offset on that one string. That way it could have a normal fanned fret neck on the upper strings, and then go all the way down to 32" or something on the low B. My hesitation for a high A is because it'll make the bass strings harder to reach. It could actually work if I used the same string spacing as novax though, the CH model has a tiny neck on it, but very playable.

I remember you mentioning that you wanted an instrument with the range of a piano. With 24 frets that'd put me at almost 6 octaves, only 1.5 shy of a piano. FEAR! :)

-Alan

[BCroad]

Yeah I have some recordings, they are not mastered yet, I'll let you know as I like to have my stuff reviewed. I hoping to have a lot more clips on my site than the ones now but you can't get everything done in a weekend or even a week or two, things keep coming up, you know how it is. I've been doing tons of jazz gigs with the Novax, I do want the low B string some on a Novax someday, then just like when I play six string bass I tune it down to an A. My Conklin is low A (of a four string bass) to a high A above the E, that is very useful too. By the way, I've been really getting into tapping acoustic, live it gets received pretty well.

BC

[Jersey Ray]

This is an excellent question, one that should be asked before one plunks down a grand or more for an instrument.

I say, there is an inherent advantage if you like the sound - the percusive guitar sound. I bought my first tapping instrument because I liked the sound that I heard from Tony Levin (the only player I knew about at the time) - I wanted *that sound*, that he had on the Discipline and ABWH albums.

Then I got my first instrument, and I discovered this whole treble range, and I started to get into the one man band thing. Now, I think this is the wrong attitude, hey of you really want to be one man band, buy a few synths, it's a lot easier (I've done that too)!

So now, my approach (I hope) has matured a little - I like the sound of my guitars (ADG, Warr) and I use them for their strengths, a percussive lead voice and a solid bass. If I want some other sound, I will assign it to another band member if that is more appropriate.

As for the technique itself, compared to fingerstyle, I think that 2 part counterpoint is much more accesible with the tapping, especially with a fourths tuning. The fifths in bass is also nice for the widely voiced chrds, but there's no reason you couldn't do this with fingerstyle, too (e.g. guitar craft tuning).

Ray

[mrINFINITY]

Brian,

I just thought up a tuning yesterday that would enable me to have almost the exact same fingerings as a CH signature (in a guitar scale) + be a full scale bass + make a perfect tapping instrument. Here goes:

9 strings tuned: B E A D - E A D F# B (stereo split at - ).
+29 frets. + full 34/35" bass scale.

Heres how it works, you keep a scrunchie or whatever you use behind the nut for when you want to tap. And when you want to fingerpick you put a clamp-style capo across the 5th fret on the guitar side only and you have:

B E A D - (A D G B E)

capoing at the 5th fret also happens to be a nice guitar scale length, and since the whole instrument has 29 frets, capoing at the 5th fret means those "open capoed" notes will have a full 24 fret guitar range. You then have all of the open bass strings to use whenever you want + when you want a fretted one it's in the same spot as the CH signature, just one string lower.

Another advantage is if you want the full range of a guitar all you have to do is take the capo off and you can rock out with some power chords + a bass line.

FURTHERMORE, the same concept can be applied if you capo the whole first fret on all 9 strings and the 6th fret on the guitar side you can fingerpick in different keps easier. But that can be done on any instrument so it's nothing too special ;).

I am going to build a mockup and see how it turns out. I may just for fun slap another bass string or two on their just because they won't really be in the way of the other 9. C#F#BEAD - EADF#B. Just like the subcontra basses that adler guitars makes ;). I already drafted out a 9 string on paper so i'll be patient and see how it turns out.

Let me know what you think of this idea.

-Alan

[BCroad]

Alan,

Cool idea, you sound like me always in search of that ultimate instrument, except you're actually building yours. If I had the time I might try. Other than an odd tuning for a piece that only requires the type of improve you'd do on a classical piece like variations on the theme and all, for me, I have to tap in the standard guitar tuning and it's just fine. I don't know how to accomodate for improve, I'm an old dog I guess. Let me know how it goes on your new instrument for sure.


Bryan