attention tap-builders

[rjgoos]

I think we have at least three people here (Alan, MrInfinity), Okie, and RockOla, who are in the process of building tap instruments. Siggi, of course, drops in from time to time, and is an experienced luthier. Any others?

Alan has posted some nice pictures. How is it going for everyone else?

I bit the bullet, bought some tuning gears and a pickup, and will try (repeat TRY) to build a pre-prototype this winter. I say "pre-prototype" because I need to know if my neck design will even hold up to a six-string, regular scale load, before trying a longer-scale, 8 stringed model, which will be the prototype for an eventual 10-stringer.


Jay

[Glenn Drakeley]

RJG,

What tuning gears and pickups did you acquire / are you planning to use ?? Locking tuning gears ? Flush mount pickups ? Bodyless design ? Headstockless design ?? Solid or laminated ??? You know, all the obvious questions...........

One handed Glenn...

[rjgoos]

No, No, No, Glenn....this is the PRE-prototype. I don't even know if I am even able to do this at all (I did take welding and machining courses in college, but I was pretty bad at it, even caught my pants on fire in welding lab back in 1975). So, I got inexpensive gears and a cheap pickup at: www.guitarpartsusa.com I need to know if my most basic design is even sturdy enough to hold the string tension of a 6-string. Actually making an instrument that is presentable in public comes much later.

All I will say about the design is that it is minimal....closer to a Gittler guitar than anything else I've seen...more of a metal working than a wood working project:

http://www.greenbuddha.de/guitars/modells_bilder/600_400/gittler.jpg

Jay

[traktor]

Were I you, even if it is a pre-prototype, I would make it an 8-string, if your eventual goal is an 8-string. That way you'd be addressing the correct problembos. However, if you're resigned to doing several prototypes, six strings would let you set several of the problembos aside for the first pass, I reckon.

[rjgoos]

Yes, but there is always the "lack of faith" factor, Traktor. The cheapest six string pickup is only ten bucks, and a package of six tuners is only twenty or twenty five. I'm trying to minimize my losses in case the entire design is not workable.


Jay

[traktor]

rj,

As one who sometimes follows the Adventures of Bloggard, you have probably picked up one of my Principles Of Living, which is to attempt to extract Rules O Thumb which are Generally Useful in the Employment of Life and Art.

(not always true, of course, but true enough to give some guidelines, thus evaluating unknown and unknowable courses of action)

Here are some Rules O Thumb that I've sometimes found useful --

1) Nothing Exceeds like Excess

2) The Most Interesting People are often Monomaniacs about *Something*.

3) Only the Excessive shall be Acceptable.

4) In for a Penny, in for 20 Guineas, 6 Shillings, and a Farthing.

Are these real *good* Rules O Thumb to live by?

Probably not, unless you are Lord Byron.

However, these do wonderously well at making one think about paths which may cause one to enjoy the living of a life.

Just a thought ...


[PS: As best I can recall it, from the days pre-decimal Penny ... A farthing is a quarter penny, twelve pence in a shilling, twenty shillings in a pound, and a pound plus a shilling is a guinea. Thus the famous saying.]

[rockola]

Originally posted by rjgoos
How is it going for everyone else?

Mine will be finished (not necessarily strung up, though) by the end of October. Watch this space...

will try (repeat TRY)

Do, or do not. There is no try. --Yoda (http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/yoda/) in "The Empire Strikes Back"

[Consul]

I, too, am out to build my own tap instrument, since I no longer have any hope of being able to afford one.

I have been playing in my mind with many different design ideas, so it will be very interesting to see what other folks here come up with.

At first, I was thinking about just copying a Chapman Stick or a Warr, but since I'm going to be building this thing myself, I started to think about what original ideas to throw into the mix. One of the first was to make a Stick-style guitar out of cast acrylic. I dismissed that one recently, though, as I don't think it would have any tone worth speaking of.

As soon as I settle on a final design, I'll let everyone in on it.

One problem I am having is with a bridge design. I don't think I want to go as far as custom machining. I was thinking about the "individual bridge system" that Ralph Novak offers for sale.

I think I'm going to go after a ten-string design, two-region, inverted bass, like the basic Chapman Stick.

[Consul]

I think I have the design down that I want. I'll try to draw it up sometime in the next few days. Right now, I'm seeking out hardwood suppliers.

My idea is to laminate together (along the long dimension) three pieces of purpleheart with two pieces of maple. It'll have a body of sorts that is simply glued pieces of purpleheart to accomodate the width of the pickups.

The idea is the see the pattern the lamination makes along the entire instrument. That means the frets will be laid in directly on the wood. The main problem I see with this idea is that the truss rod will have to go in from the back rather than the front, but this should be doable, I think.

I still haven't decided how to do the headstock, but I'm confident I'll figure something out. I think I'll make it angled back at 14-15 degrees, which might make the truss rod tricky.

Scale length will be somewhere around 30-32". This I just need to research.

Now I just need to get a job so I can afford tools and wood and all that stuff. :(

[rockola]

Originally posted by Consul
That means the frets will be laid in directly on the wood. The main problem I see with this idea is that the truss rod will have to go in from the back rather than the front, but this should be doable, I think.

Fender has been doing this for almost 60 years.

I still haven't decided how to do the headstock, but I'm confident I'll figure something out. I think I'll make it angled back at 14-15 degrees, which might make the truss rod tricky.

Only if you make it adjustable from the nut end, and not necessarily even then. Why do you think it would be an issue?

[Consul]

>> Only if you make it adjustable from the nut end, and not necessarily even then. Why do you think it would be an issue? <<

Maybe because everybody I talk to says this is an issue. :D Well, okay, this is my first instrument ever, even though I have some experience with woodworking. If I can figure out how to make the truss adjustable from the body end, I may have solved my last major problem. The rest is time, materials, and patience.

I need to do a scale drawing of my plan so far so you can all see what I'm up to. I'll see if I can get that done soon. Since I can't do CAD worth much of anything, it'll likely be a scanned piece of paper. ;)

It has been suggested to me that I build a mockup with cheap woods first, so I know how to solve the problems I'll face when I build the real instrument. I don't think this is a bad idea.

[traktor]

It's not difficult to make it adjustable from the body end. We made the Mobius Megatar instrument in this manner. The benefit, in my opinion, is that you need not remove much wood from the tuners end.

If you tilt the head back 12-16 degrees, you'll get longer sustain, according to the conventional wisdom of the guitar-builders I know. Of course, the grain of the wood will continue to go straight and therefore the tilt-back head becomes reliant upon the adhesion properties of the wood without the greatest strength of the grain running in the same exact direction. For that reason, IMHO, it's nice to be able to avoid removing yet more of the wood for a hole in which to adjust a truss rod from the tuners end.

Adding a volute (a bit of additional wood just at the angle where tilthead meets neck is another attractive way to strengthen this joint.

Stew-Mac and AllParts and Luthiers Mercantile all offer an array of truss rods. In many ways, the push-pull rod may be the easiest to install. It's a bit larger, but if adjusting from the body end, it shouldn't be difficult.

[rockola]

Originally posted by traktor
If you tilt the head back 12-16 degrees, you'll get longer sustain, according to the conventional wisdom of the guitar-builders I know. Of course, the grain of the wood will continue to go straight

For the record, the one I'm building has a 15 degree angle, but since the headstock has been glued onto the neck stock, the wood grain presents no problems. I believe most builders who make necks with headstocks angled more than just a few degrees do it this way.

[traktor]

I've seen it done both ways, and described in "how-to" books both ways.

I'm no expert on glues, but Tite-Bond glue, for example, makes the claim that the glued bond is stronger than the wood, and I have no reason to doubt it.

[Consul]

Thank you all very much for your input! It is all going into my Great Gray Matter Databank. :D

I'll get that drawing done, scanned, and posted soon!

Then it'll be a matter of planning out how to proceed with the build. I think I can! I think I can! I think I... :)

[woodsman]

I am building a tapping instrument myself.

I started with a solid piece of mahogany. (I'm fortunate to have a large supply of honduran mahogany, a few of the pieces are very large planks.)

So far I have the fretboard area flat, the head roughed out, and the neck is getting close to the shape i want it - 3 5/8" wide for the length of the fretboard, 1" thick in the middle with a rounded taper towards the outside. I'm waiting untill I figure out what pickups i'm going to use to shape the body area, especially since i will probably end up adding more wood to the sides to accomodate pickups, etc.

I'm planning on making all the hardware myself with the exception of the tuning machines.

(edited previus plan) Now going to use blade style humbuckers.

Thanks,
- and good luck with your projects.

[Consul]

Here's something that is puzzling me...

Has anyone solved the "acquiring/building a bridge" part yet?

I had thought about using the Novak Individual Bridge system, but those are designed to have the right string spacing for a guitar when butted up against each other, and I (we) need something to put the strings closer together than that.

Is there something I'm overlooking? I suppose I could talk to a local machinist...

Thank you for the help, everyone!

[rjgoos]

For a prototype (or a pre-prototype) you could do it yourself:

www.ehhs.cmich.edu/~dhavlena/nylon.gif

[rockola]

Originally posted by Consul
I (we) need something to put the strings closer together than that.

If you wish to copy the design of a particular instrument 100%, then yes. However, there are plenty of tap guitars with standard guitar bridges. Here's an example of a DIY 8-string tap guitar bridge, using standard Strat bridge parts, with a custom brass bridge plate. As you can see, it's hardly rocket science.
http://www.tapguitar.com/miscpix/br200.jpg

[Consul]

First, I want to thank you all for your time and help.

After trying to tap my acoustic guitar several times, I've decided that a standard string spacing simply will not work for me on a tap instrument. I want them closer together, although how close has yet to be decided. (With a standard spacing, it's impossible for me to play two strings at once with one finger. I'm finding that is a very common tap technique, and one I should probably be able to do.)

That first link shows some promise for prototyping. I had also thought about just using some common (flathead) screws to run the strings through. I had also thought about making a wood bridge. I could at least prototype in this way, since I do plan to make a mockup instrument with cheap wood first to get a feel for the instrument.

Ultimately, I'll probably take the final design to a machinist for fabrication. There are several in town.

[Consul]

By the way, that 8-string bridge (I may decide to do an 8-string after this 10-string I have in mind) is pretty darn spiffy. Good work!

[Consul]

Okay, I had a sketch together, but upon scanning it into the computer, I realized just how useless it was. I used to be a pretty good draftsman, too.

Oh well, I think based upon my description above, you can see what I'm going after. It's nothing groundbreaking, really, but I do have something I intend to try.

I'm going to angle the frets, bridge, and but by about 20 degrees (or less, probably) relative to the neck. The idea is for the frets to be essentially parallel to your fingers, even though the guitar is held at a shallower angle to your body. I don't know if this will work or not, but the Solene is designed just this way, so I don't see why not.

You can probably see now why I'm agonizing over the design of the bridge. ;)

[rjgoos]

Aaargh...the fear of screwing it all up...

You will make mistakes. Everybody does. Part of the deal is navigating your way around these and possibly changing your design to accommodate them. --rockola 20041022, and by the way this post was by rjgoos before I made a mistake and wiped it out, so as you can see, nobody's perfect, not even your friendly Admin

[traktor]

Originally posted by rjgoos <snip> ... Aaargh...the fear of screwing it all up... [/B]
Well, then, just pretend that it's already screwed up. Now ... nothing to fear, right?

[rjgoos]

traktor wrote:

>Well, then, just pretend that it's already screwed up. Now ... nothing to fear, right?<


That's right. Repeat to self...this is the pre-prototype...this is the pre-prototype.


Jay

[rjgoos]

After almost a year of scheming, and drafting out plans, I finally got started. Spent about two hours on Saturday measuring, and three hours on Sunday in the shop. So far, so good. The fastest half, but the half requiring the most precision is done. I'll be out of town next weekend, but I'm hoping that in two weeks, I can post the first sounds of my home-made tap guitar.

My son informs me that the proper term for a pre-prototype is "prototype", and that the intermediate step between a prototype and a final model would be the "test type."

A REALLY stupid question. For this prototype, I am using a real cheap Strat-style pickup. For an example, see:
http://mywebpages.comcast.net/skgs/sk/Images/pickups/60's_strat_pickup.jpg

There are little medal poles that stick out. Are these adjustable in and out? The only reason I ask is that the pickup I bought, two of these poles stick out a further than others.


Jay

[traktor]

Originally posted by rjgoos
There are little medal poles that stick out. Are these adjustable in and out? The only reason I ask is that the pickup I bought, two of these poles stick out a further than others. Although there probably exist strat-type pickups with adjustable pole pieces, usually those poles are not adjustable.

They stick up in varrying degrees, with the middle higher than the end ones, because they're intended to be mounted on a strat-type instrument, which has a "radiused" fretboard, meaning one which is rounded.

Since the fretboard is rounded, normally you adjust the saddles so that the middle saddles are higher than the end saddles, so that all the strings are about the same distance from the fretboard.

Now, if all the pole pieces were the same height, then the ones on the ends would be very close to the strings, and the pole pieces in the middle would be further from the higher strings in the middle. And for that reason, the common way to make pole pieces is to make the middle poles stick up higher than the ones on the end.

The purpose of the pole is to extend the magnetic field higher above the coil below.

Simple, no?

[rjgoos]

Traktor wrote:

>They stick up in varrying degrees, with the middle higher than the end ones, because they're intended to be mounted on a strat-type instrument, which has a "radiused" fretboard, meaning one which is rounded.<


Now I AM embarrassed. I have been playing nothing but a flat fretboard instrument for a year. Something so obvious was no longer obvious to me. Sheesh, it was a stupid question. Just call me a member of the Flat Fretboard Society.


Jay

[rockola]

Originally posted by traktor
They stick up in varrying degrees, with the middle higher than the end ones, because they're intended to be mounted on a strat-type instrument, which has a "radiused" fretboard, meaning one which is rounded.

As you can see from the 3rd pickup in RJ's picture, this is not always the case, and indeed I don't remember seeing a pickup like you describe (but then I'm not a Strat guy). They stick up in varying degrees to even out the overall loudness of the strings. This is especially an issue with the G string, which can be wound or plain. In RJ's picture, the G string pole piece is definitely lower than those on its either side.

[traktor]

Originally posted by rockola
As you can see from the 3rd pickup in RJ's picture, this is not always the case, and indeed I don't remember seeing a pickup like you describe (but then I'm not a Strat guy). They stick up in varying degrees to even out the overall loudness of the strings. This is especially an issue with the G string, which can be wound or plain. In RJ's picture, the G string pole piece is definitely lower than those on its either side. Well, that clarifies something for me. I'd noticed that the ones I've seen and fiddled with seemed to be higher generally in the middle, so I deduced the radiussed fretboard matching. But Ola is right, it's never seemed like a smooth curve, and I think Ola's hit it on the head. It seems unlikely that the irregularity would be due to sloppiness; so it makes perfect sense that making the string volume even is the answer. Thanks!

[rjgoos]

Well, my prototype is far enough along that I strung it up today, and heard its tone for the first time through an amp. Except for a little wood string guide by the zero fret, it is an all-metal unit. It is entirely dis-assemble-able, so any piece of the unit can be replaced or adjusted.

Hopefully a song will be posted in a week or so. This unit will never know a public unveiling, and I now know dozens of things to do differently in the next iteration.


Jay

[Consul]

Here's a good question for you.

My idea for construction of my tap guitar idea involved having a completely planed fretboard all the way down to the bridge, then mounting the pickups flush to the "body". Upon looking closely at the Stick design, I see this is exactly how Chapman designed his.

This of course presents a patent problem. Can anyone tell me if this nifty little idea is covered by patent?

Thank you all for your help!

[rjgoos]

Of course, Mr. Chapman's original patents have expired. I think he does have a patent on a pickup module (6,043,422) that can be installed or de-installed from the side without even loosening the strings. Other than that, I am not familiar with patents regarding guitar pickups.

Jay

[traktor]

Originally posted by Consul
My idea for construction of my tap guitar idea involved having a completely planed fretboard all the way down to the bridge, then mounting the pickups flush to the "body". Upon looking closely at the Stick design, I see this is exactly how Chapman designed his.

This of course presents a patent problem. Can anyone tell me if this nifty little idea is covered by patent? I don't entirely understand your description, because if you had frets all the way to the bridge, then any pickups would have to be installed into frets. (And also, the frets would become infintessimally close to each other up around fret 34!)

But if you mean a flat fretboard that gives you 22-25 frets and then a blank space to the bridge, the entire assembly being only of a width equal to the fretboard width (as is done on Stick(R) instruments), then my guess is that it isn't patented, because Dave Bunker made a guitar like this (called "The Board") some years before Emmett appeared on the scene. And of course you'll find many, many Hawaiian guitars before Emmett or Dave, all of which have this kind of design.

I'm no patent expert. But if you are specifically worried about treading on Emmett's toes -- and it would be kind to honor Emmett's trademarks and patents, of course -- then go to http://uspto.gov and search in *both* the trademark and patent sections for Emmett Chapman.

The reason I say to search trademark as well is that some of Emmett's patents have now expired, but in some cases he has filed for coverage of his ideas under trademark laws. For example, he has trademarked his bevelled edges and dot markers, and the shape (outline) of his instrument, as I recall.

My guess is that you'd have no difficulty with a "bodiless" instrument, but it's wise, kind, and prudent to do some due diligence searching.

Also, remember that if you have no body, and you start cutting holes out for pickups, then the stiffness of the wood at that point may well be reduced. This may in some cases cause some "springiness" to the instrument, which will affect your tone. Some people, myself among them, suspect that the Stick's unusual tone (the "growliness" of the bass, and the "chiming" of the melody strings) comes in part from the less-than-rigid bodiless design. I have to advance this as personal opinion. I'm not entirely sure of this and may be wrong. To be certain, I think a person would have to build a bodiless design, record it, then glue on body parts to make it stiffer and record it again.

[Consul]

Yes, Traktor, what I mean is your second description. Sorry I wasn't so clear. I simply want the neck and pickup area to be flush with each other, just like the Stick.

My design does have a body to it, in the form of wings that will be glued to the side. I'll put a sketch together and post it here in a few.

Thank you both for your input! That "priot art" reference helps as well. :)

[Consul]

This is kind of a crappy sketch, but it gets the point across:

http://www.studioconsul.net/techtalk/tappistry/tapguitar.gif

The block down at the end is where the bridge would likely end up. The lines running up and down the neck are laminations of different woods. Contrasting woods, like purpleheart and maple, would work best here.

The hastily-sketched body shape here is not really my final idea, but again, it gets the point across.

Thank all for your help!

[rjgoos]

I am continually amazed how many touchstyle players try to make their own instruments!

I am in the midst of fret-hell on mine....so near and yet so far. The frets and neck have to be essentialy perfect for the low-low action needed for touchstyle. Hats off to everyone who has successfully made a touchstyle instrument!

Jay

[dr_scrimshaw]

I'm new, take my thoughts with a grain of salt. When I build something new, I am tempted to build it of cheaper materials. Then I think "what will I learn from an instrument with a pine 2x4 neck?" and the answer is not too much. Besides, I'll have 40 hours invested in junk. Now, I have nothing against sorting through cedar shingles at a construction site and begging for the one that has tight grain, oriented right, and using it as a sound board. I also have tropical hardwood that was a shipping pallet, again free. But I wouldn't start a project with the expectation of building junk, so I'd start with decent materials.
Anyway, I am thinking of trying a tapping type instrument. My experience is of the 3 string sort, I have built a bunch of dulcimers and "A-sticks." If you haven't built any instrument and want to start out easy, I recommend the A-stick plans that the "dulciaddict" has posted for free. He also has guitar plans. It will introduce you to some issues with building instruments. http://home.centurytel.net/Dulciaddict/dulciaddict.htm
Looking forward to reading about everyone else's experience building a tapping instrument.

[Bearguitars]

Hi, dr_scrimshaw,

great and inspirational tips on your Site! If had it years earlier, would it be a biiiig time saver for me.
Actually I will try your tip with the bone... My cats haven`t any intrest in those stuff, he,he.:D

[dr_scrimshaw]

Actually I am not the Dulciaddict and it is not my site. It is where I got my start building instruments though. Wendell, the owner of the site, does build some nice instruments, he's got lots of plans on-line for free, and he's a great resource if you have questions.
As for bones, I actually picked up a bone from my in-laws yard with dog teeth marks on it (the dog was not anywhere near) just because it was really smooth and dense. It made great nuts and bridge inserts.

[rjgoos]

Dr. Scrimshaw wrote:

>When I build something new, I am tempted to build it of cheaper materials. Then I think "what will I learn from an instrument with a pine 2x4 neck?" and the answer is not too much.<

It depends at what level the person is starting at. In my case, I hadn't touched a power tool since I left the farm in 1972. No way that I was going to make my first prototypes out of expernsive materials.

I am forging on. I've started collecting materials for my second prototype. This time, a full 34" scale instrument.


Jay

[dr_scrimshaw]

You are right, it's not an issue of using the finest materials vs. the worst. I do mock up parts out of pine to see how a joint might fit together, etc. and I use lumber that isn't the finest quality for experimental projects. But I look at it this way: $20 in materials and 40 hours of work at $15 per hour is $620 (my time is worth more when I am at work, but it's hard to price personal time, so I'll go with a low figure). $100 in materials and the same labor is $700. Sure, it's 500% the material cost, but overall it's only about 12% more when I include both material and labor.

I have a new thought to bounce around. It seems to me that the biggest problem is making AND keeping the fret board straight, flat, true. Wood moves with changes in humidity, so we add steel and carbon fiber rods to stop it.
Some people that make cedar arrows soak them in Thompsons water seal to reduce the effect of humidity. They actually vacuum infuse the arrows. Does anybody have any thoughts on soaking lumber in Thompsons in a closed tank for a month or so?

[woodsman]

a few thoughts...
that would probably affect the resonance of more absorbent woods. Increased density may actually be desirable, depending... then again it might have a dampening effect, decreasing sustain.

[rjgoos]

Dr Scrimshaw wrote:

>Wood moves with changes in humidity, so we add steel and carbon fiber rods to stop it.<

I am getting around this problem in my instrument by dispensing with wood altogether. How it will respond to changes in temperature...well, I'm not so sure.

My rosewood Stick is the most stable instrument, mechanically, that I could hope for. We have extreme swings in humidity where I live, between summer and winter, and I have no complaints.


Jay

[Glenn Drakeley]

RJG Writes:

My rosewood Stick is the most stable instrument, mechanically, that I could hope for. We have extreme swings in humidity where I live, between summer and winter, and I have no complaints.

GFD Responds:

All four of the Sticks I used to enjoy, Teak Grand, Rosewood Grand, Rosewood SB-7 and Oak 10 string, succumbed to the climates here in lovely New Jersey. Wood grains pulled up out of the wood to the point of splintering onesself and wood swelled beyond the fret rod ends, leaving an unconventional thumb resting point if one had long thumbnails, just slide your thumbnail into the void where the fretrod end used to be.

My Box LM developed a split down the Blackwood fretboard, not a great wood choice for NJ climates, no longer used on Box Guitars either, black epoxied to hide the split.......

My Megatars have the inverse of the swollen wood problem, the fretboards shrunk to expose fretrod ends, not a good feel along the sides of the fretboards !!! My former Warr exhibited the same syndrome.

My Box JC-35 has exhibited no NJ climate related problems in its 2+ year existence, i'd have to check to remember what its woods are.

So how does one pick the perfect wood for a Tapstruments Fretboard ???

[rjgoos]

Egad, Glenn...your climate eats instruments for lunch!!! I've never heard of such a thing...

Anyone else had such bad luck??


Jay

[Consul]

Sounds to me that you're a perfect candidate for graphite instruments, Glenn...

My Seagull flattop acoustic is somewhat bent out of shape from being out in Colorado's dry air, but I haven't had the kind of bad luck that Glenn has.

[Glenn Drakeley]

RJG Wrote:

Egad, Glenn...your climate eats instruments for lunch!!! I've never heard of such a thing...


GFD Responds:

The Sticks would have eventually required serious refinishing, especially the Teak.

As for exposed fret rod ends, this is a major annoyance and short of having them filed back down so that they're flush with the sides of the fretboard I'll have to live with it. I'm assuming this phenom is due to climate, i'd hate to think the instruments were built that way. It's not like they protrude waaaay out..........

Box LM split is no biggie, I picked it up used and there're other signs of repair work having been done, a total don't care on this
fantastic instrument !!! Maybe periodic Beezwax-ing of the fretboard would've prevented this.........