Fanned-Fret believer

[wmlusk]

The family stopped in Mt. Shasta on the way to the Bay and were honored to pay a visit to one Mr. Topaz. While we didn't get to see the super secret Megatar Lab-or-a-tory (mwhaa-haa-haa!!) I did get to play a Megatar with fanned frets.

Let me tell you, The 4ths/4ths tuning is great and fanned frets have to be played to be believed. The fanned frets and extended scale make for awsome tone and the hands fall gracefully onto the fingerboard.

Absolutely amazing!



Now if TT could just learn some "Wiggles" songs! :D

[Uberbass]

Billy, does this mean that you took one home? Or do you plan to?

Hope the trip was/is good.
b


<<The family stopped in Mt. Shasta on the way to the Bay and were honored to pay a visit to one Mr. Topaz. While we didn't get to see the super secret Megatar Lab-or-a-tory (mwhaa-haa-haa!!) I did get to play a Megatar with fanned frets.

Let me tell you, The 4ths/4ths tuning is great and fanned frets have to be played to be believed. The fanned frets and extended scale make for awsome tone and the hands fall gracefully onto the fingerboard.

Absolutely amazing!>>

[wmlusk]

No, I didn't take one home. Had the wife with me don't ya know! :D I don't have any plans to buy any new instruments, but if I were buying, I'd likely pick up a Tone-Weaver.

The trip was nice, enough. Wife's family, so more spectator sport than anything. :)

[rjgoos]

I ran across a web site of a guitar maker, who uses fanned frets, and who also uses a sort of fret "rod" that might be of interest to those tapping more traditionally-shaped guitars. He does mention two-handed tapping on his web page.

Some examples:

A 9-stringer:
www.tkinstruments.com/id100.htm

A 7-stringer:
http://www.tkinstruments.com/id110.htm

Has a link to his fret design on this page:
www.tkinstruments.com/id17.htm

The owner (Todd) is also a z-tar fan, and a nice guy.


Jay

[Glenn Drakeley]

Interesting concept, Fan-fretted short scale length bass.

Not so interesting, production designs who's concepts i'd hope were cleared through a Patent Attorney.

[traktor]

I'd agree with Glenn. It looks odd. Ralph Novak has a patent on "multi-scale" fretting, which sounds remarkably similar to the description on this particular website.

I'd think that, if this luthier has licensed Novak's patent, that he would mention the fact.

I'd think that, if he's not licensed Novak's patent, it's likely that his entire operation is at risk.

Given the low cost of licensing the patent, it doesn't seem like something a wise person would do. So it seems puzzling to me; on the surface, it looks quite odd.

But odder things have happened, eh?

[mrINFINITY]

http://www.tkinstruments.com/id107.htm <

There is a link to novax's page there....

[Isidro]

I have always been puzzled by the Novak patent. Fanned frets are not a new idea. They have been around at least since the 16th century. See the link below

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/brianpayne1/orphario.htm

This looks like "prior art" to me. Is there anything new or interesting to the Novak fanned frets to make the idea pattentable?

Thanks,
Isidro

[traktor]

I'm no patent attorney. However, Novak did not patent the look or the idea of fanned-frets. In fact, the words "fanned-frets" do not appear in his patent. This phrase was added later by somebody else and it caught on because it's nicely descriptive.

Novak's patent is for a method of using differing scale lengths in order to effect an improved tone. Such a patent has never been made before so it was granted.

I've seen pictures of the Opharion before, and maybe it would be some kind of prior art, but the frets look wrong to me. The pictures I've seen first appear not to have a constant rate of change over the frets, which would produce an instrument which wouldn't even play well in tune. Nextly, it appears to my eye that the bridge would have to be *far* more sloped for things to work out. Normally on a Novak fanned-fret neck, the greatest angle is near the nut. It would work either way, but that way the bridge doesn't need such an extreme angle.

I'm no patent expert, but to determine whether the Opharion did in fact have sweeter tone by virtue of varying scale lengths, we'd probably have to get our hands on an Opharion.

[Even if it has varying scale lengths, the idea might be patentable anyway. I understand that somebody recently got a new patent for aspirin, because they found a new use for it!]

Just my 2 cents.

[Isidro]

I imagine that the only way to really resolve this issue would be to actually go to court. Fortunately, I don't make instruments for sale nor plan to build anything with fannned frets.

Thanks,
Isidro

[Fredrik]

As an industrial designer I can tell you this much about patents: they only do the owner good for little while. There will always be copies with slight alterations, and in some cases the patent has just reinvented an existing idea.

What normally works better is establishing a name/product that actually stands out of the crowd, and that gives you as user/customer a higher reason of some sort to purchase that specific product. This reason could be aestethical, materialbased, ergonomical and so on. Like any well known clothing brand. We know the trousers that costs a third of the price will last just as long, look just as fine and fits perfect - will do the job. Still many would prefer the product with the known brandname.

Seems to me that fretboards with different lengths of strings have existed for some time, and will continue to evolve inside and outside different patents.

The same can be said about tapping instruments. Not long ago there was a similar conflict - that most of us know the result of. Today others benefit from this result as well, producing new and exiting instruments.

My point? Not quite sure actually, maybe we should just encourage new thinking and ideas?

[rjgoos]

>I imagine that the only way to really resolve this issue would be to actually go to court. Fortunately, I don't make instruments for sale nor plan to build anything with fannned frets.<


Actually, one can pay a fee and challenge a patent directly. It is expensive (something like $8000, and that does not include attorney's fees, etc.). So, even if Ralph's patent could be challenged, why would anyone do so, if he only wants $75 per instrument as a fee? I'm sure that big players (pharmaceutical companies, etc.) challenge each others patents all the time.

I should say that I am amazed that some things get patented. Not only useless or impractical things, but I am most amazed that obvious prior art, that it only takes about 15 minutes to find at a patent library, is often not mentioned. I could give examples, but won't.


Jay

[SkinnyDevil]

Perhaps someone could elaborate on the concept of "fanned frets"? I've heard them spoken of lots lately, but don;t understand what they are.

[rjgoos]

A guitar usually has a fixed "scale", say 25 inches for a guitar, 34 inches for a bass. The frets are parallel to each other.

A fanned-fret guitar has a shorter scale for the high strings, and a longer scale for the lower strings. The frets cannot be parallel to accomplish this, and have a radiating, or "fanned" look.

It's just easier to look at the pictures on Ralph's web site:

http://www.novaxguitars.com/


or on Traktor's site:

http://www.megatar.com/english/Models/ToneWeaver/toneweaver.html


Jay

[PhoBucket]

I see many statements made about fanned frets having improved intonation over straight fret designs. Is this improved intonation on a single string, or in string to string relationships?

Is it hard to adjust to tapping chords with the right hand on a fanned fret instrument?

Has anybody experimented with different tuning schemes specifically designed to work with fanned frets to make certain intervals or chord shapes more accessible?