Box Guitars and tap guitar aesthetics

[motormind]

I have become interested in those Box Guitars, made by Stu Box in Australia (he has a site (http://www.bme.com.au/) too).

I would like to hear about any experiences anyone might have about these guitars...

[rjgoos]

I have not seen or played one myself, but Glenn D. around here has one. Anyone else?

Stu is nice guy...drop him an e-mail. Also, I think the MP3s on his web site speak for themselves. The guy can not only make instruments...he can really PLAY, too.

RJ Goos

[motormind]

Originally posted by rjgoos
I have not seen or played one myself, but Glenn D. around here has one. Anyone else?

Stu is nice guy...drop him an e-mail. Also, I think the MP3s on his web site speak for themselves. The guy can not only make instruments...he can really PLAY, too.

RJ Goos

I sent him some mail, but didn't get any reply still. The main reason that I am interested in those Box guitars is because they appear to have a wider string spacing. I have very large hands and the narrow spacing on my 10-string stick makes it hard for me to play. Warr guitars seem to have more or less the same spacing as well.... and I do prefer a 10 or 12-string instrument, so no Stick-bass or thelike for me.

Of course, the headless design should also make it possible to use ordinary guitar strings, so I could perhaps save some cash there. And of course they look cool :D

[rjgoos]

Sometimes it takes Stu a few days to answer an e-mail.

Have you considered 10-string "Grand Stick", where 10 strings are installed on a 12-string-wide board.

Anyone here know what the string spacing is on a ADG-10 or Warr?

Regarding your basic problem...too big of hands....I wish it were a problem for me...my hands are almost not big enough to play a regular Stick. If I splay out my fingers as wide as possible, it is only 5" from the tip of my index to tip of pinkie finger.


RJ Goos

[motormind]

Originally posted by rjgoos
[B]Sometimes it takes Stu a few days to answer an e-mail.

Have you considered 10-string "Grand Stick", where 10 strings are installed on a 12-string-wide board.


Na, I'd rather have a 12-string instrument, really. Plus, the Stick sets are both hard to acquire and very expensive.


Regarding your basic problem...too big of hands....I wish it were a problem for me...my hands are almost not big enough to play a regular Stick. If I splay out my fingers as wide as possible, it is only 5" from the tip of my index to tip of pinkie finger.


My hand span is about 8 inches, although the biggest problem is the tickness of my fingers. I have to play with my fingertips, or else I inevitably strike two strings at once. It *is* doable, but learning to play takes much longer this way.

[Dernier_recours]

I own a SR-648. I have never played other touch-style instruments, and never mesured the string spacing, but the string spacing seems equivalent to the one found on a conventional electric guitar.

The best points of Box guitars is that the sound is cristal clear (Stu wrote me that the new pickups he now installs are magical ones), headless makes it light weight and the neck is very ergonomic (uncrossed). The guitar is also very versatile, which can be a good point for some folks that play improvisation and a con for others who prefer a better stabiliy.

The scale lenght of a SR is a guitar scale, but I did tune it with one set of bass strings and one set of guitar strings, although and it sounds weaker than larger scales, it sounds good for me.

I'm still a beginner, but this is how I feel about it.

[rjgoos]

I just looked at Stu's site. I'll say one thing...he sure offers a wide range of instruments....scale lengths between 24.75 and 35 inches, and 8, 10, or 12 strings...


RJ Goos

[Dernier_recours]

I don't know if the JC models are still offered. A new website is in progress and, for sure, further explainations will be available about the models offered.

Cheers,

DR

[Glenn Drakeley]

As RJ stated I am the proud owner of two Box Guitars, a guitar scale length LM #004 tuned standard guitar on both sides (yes, that's standard guitar on both sides !! ) and a bass scale length JC35 tuned non inverted on the bass side and standard Megatar on the melody side. I would trade neither for anybodies first born children !!! LM pic attached, JC will be in another email, I cannot post two pix in the same email........

[Glenn Drakeley]

Well that's just great, I don't see any attachment so i'll try again !!! JC35 pic attached.....

[Glenn Drakeley]

Tappistry.org is eating my attachments today, not like this is the first time this has happened, so I give up !!!

Both the LM and JC's are heavy instruments. Neither has a wider than you'd expect string spacing. I wouldn't put any bass strings on the LM, short scale length bass does nothing for me, that's why I got rid of my Santucci. I purchased the LM used from SB, it's been epoxy'ed at the headstock and the fretboard is splitting, I forget what wood the fretboard is but its way too hard. The JC was purchased new, and let me tell you this, the import tax was astronomical !!! Both are most incredible sounding, and like I said previously, i'd never consider getting rid of either !!!

More later, maybe.....

[motormind]

Originally posted by Glenn Drakeley
Tappistry.org is eating my attachments today, not like this is the first time this has happened, so I give up !!!

Both the LM and JC's are heavy instruments. Neither has a wider than you'd expect string spacing. I wouldn't put any bass strings on the LM, short scale length bass does nothing for me, that's why I got rid of my Santucci. I purchased the LM used from SB, it's been epoxy'ed at the headstock and the fretboard is splitting, I forget what wood the fretboard is but its way too hard. The JC was purchased new, and let me tell you this, the import tax was astronomical !!! Both are most incredible sounding, and like I said previously, i'd never consider getting rid of either !!!


Well I thought they would be lighter, since they are headless. The string spacing is more than with a Stick, which has 8.13 mm spacing, whereas the JC-35 has a spacing of 10.5 mm (according to the specs).

Hmm... I did hear that some guy in Belgium also makes touch guitars. Does anyone remember who it was?

[rockola]

Originally posted by motormind
Hmm... I did hear that some guy in Belgium also makes touch guitars. Does anyone remember who it was?

There are at least two. One is Paul Belgrado, who makes tapping instruments in the bodyless style (see tapguitar.com (http://www.tapguitar.com/) for pics). I've tried several of his instruments, they are all unique, but all are of highest quality - I'm still kicking myself for not buying one second hand when I had the chance.

The other is Yuri Wassilevsky, whom I had the pleasure of meeting in April on my trip to Brussels. Also took some pics, they will materialize on the aforementioned site in the near future. Yuri hasn't built many tapping instruments yet, but he's learning, and very eager to get new orders.

Anybody who wants to get in contact with either should ask Clic Music (http://www.clicmusic.be/) for the contact info, I'm not sure if either of them is online at the moment.

[Glenn Drakeley]

My Box LM weighs in at about 10lbs and has strings on 7.5mm centers.

My Box JC weighs in at 12lbs and has strings on 8.5mm centers.

[Glenn Drakeley]

My measurements were taken across the fretboard which is where I play. The Box 10.5mm spec is measured at the bridge and is not too useful a spec (for me anyway).

[motormind]

Originally posted by rockola
There are at least two. One is Paul Belgrado, who makes tapping instruments in the bodyless style (see tapguitar.com (http://www.tapguitar.com/) for pics). I've tried several of his instruments, they are all unique, but all are of highest quality - I'm still kicking myself for not buying one second hand when I had the chance.


Hmm. I saw the pictures and I can't say that I find those Belgrado instruments very appealing. They are even uglier than the Megatars... and their construction seems to be rather crude, especially when it comes to the pick-ups.

And the Box JC-35 is 12 lbs? Darn.. that's way too heavy. I have to watch my back...

[traktor]

No way. They are *not* uglier than the megatars!

[Glenn Drakeley]

There's something I don't quite understand here, somebody would actually buy an instrument based solely upon its looks and not its sound ?? I look at it this way, what / who's uglier, me or my instrument ? The comments I've received from those who've actually seen me play (a very select few) were based upon the playing style and "what's that you're playing", not "that's one ugly muthafukka" to quote the governor of California !!!

Prototype #1 of the Stick was far less visually appealing to my eyes than the Megatar, the early bighorned Warrs weren't the best looking either and the ADG "Gumby Guitar" (quoted from an anonomous source) speaks for itself. Sound man, it's the sound !!!!

Lastly, Slider(r) straps relieve any potential back problems (i've two discs awaiting removal) I would have with the JC-35's weight.

[rjgoos]

I guess nothing could be more subjective than opinions as to whether something is ugly or not, but the Megatar seems to look OK to me, when in a normal performance setting:

Myron:

http://www.stund.demon.co.uk/Photos/P3220001.html

http://www.stund.demon.co.uk/Photos/P4050006.html


Dino (Father):

www.zyworld.com/father/

www.zyworld.com/father/Artist.htm

(Daniel and Wolfgang):

www.tapguitar.com/tapnight2003.html


I agree with Glen, it wouldn't matter if an instrument was ugly or not, if it was comfortable to play, and made good music. Having an ugly instrument (or just being ugly in general, come to think of it) has not impaired Willie Nelson's career, for example.


RJ Goos

[motormind]

I agree with Glen, it wouldn't matter if an instrument was ugly or not, if it was comfortable to play, and made good music. Having an ugly instrument (or just being ugly in general, come to think of it) has not impaired Willie Nelson's career, for example.


Hey, I am pretty ugly myself, so I need my instrument to compensate :p

Seriously, what I meant was more in the lines of "clumsy". I already have a touch instrument that is not the most practical in that respect, as you can see here (http://www.jazzcat.dds.nl/stick3.jpg). It's my Shamray, that I had converted to uncrossed tuning. It plays pretty well now, even though the damper is of a hard material that makes an audioble "tick" every time I tap a note. What I *do* like though is the headless design... it makes the use of ordinary strings possible.

Anyway, it's a bummer that Belgrado doesn't have a web-site. Hey, it's the 21st century, for crying out loud!

[Consul]

I will only say this:

The only thing I don't like about the Megatar's looks is the pickguard. I hate those things even on regular guitars.

I have to respectfully disagree on the looks of your instruments being completely unimportant. While the sound is the most important element, a performance on stage is as much a visual art as it is a performance art. Having beautiful instruments and a slick stage setup, as well as dressing nice (you don't have to be good-looking to look sharp in slacks and a nice button-down shirt), is an important part of the experience to many people.

That being said, you should never sacrifice the quality of your sound for looks, but I don't think you have to in most cases.

As far as cool-looking tap guitars, I think the Warr guitars are the best looking, followed by the newest Chapman Sticks. I'm still undecided on which I want to shoot for when I can finally buy one.

[traktor]

Originally posted by Consul
The only thing I don't like about the Megatar's looks is the pickguard. <snip>

I have to respectfully disagree on the looks of your instruments being completely unimportant. <snip>

That being said, you should never sacrifice the quality of your sound for looks, but I don't think you have to in most cases.

As far as cool-looking tap guitars, I think the Warr guitars are the best looking, followed by the newest Chapman Sticks. <snip>

Actually, in several things I must agree with Consul. There is nothing wrong with wanting a certain look, or having an aesthetic reaction or opinion to the appearance of something, or the feel, or the sound, or the taste. After all, think back about some of the women you have known! :)

Instruments made entirely of wood with the pickups inserted from the back permit the expression of beautiful wood and finishes, and my friend Mark has done very well in creating instruments of great beauty. Yeah, I didn't like his longhorn designs so much either, but he quickly refined into a very balanced and beautiful design.

Our own instrument (Mobius Megatar) was designed to have certain advantages of sound, balance, total weight, and the way it feels to the player's hands. In order to accomplish these, a stiff but not very wide body was needful. While I think it accomplishes these goals, an unconventional body design was required. I personally found the neck very beautiful and the body rather blocky in appearance when first I took Prototype #1 into my hands.

Still, it balanced wonderfully, sitting or standing, the neck felt wonderful to my hands, and I kind of liked the look. (And beauty is as beauty does, as my gram used to say. )

Back to pickguards. There's certainly nothing wrong with perferring the appearance of beautiful wood to some synthetic plastic material. On tapping instruments, of course, the purpose of any "pickguard" is not to protect the instrument from your guitar pick, but all of us still call that item a "pickguard." On our instrument, you're really viewing the pickups assembly, just as you might view the little black case mounted on the face of a Stick. We could have mounted all our pickups from the back by routing the wood, but of course, then the instruments would cost you more and would be heavier for you to wear.

All of these design considerations represent trade-offs according to the builder's and player's considerations. I originally spoke up regarding the Belmondo because I've seen them and when I consider both sound and the beauty of the construction, I think they're quite lovely.

And personally, I believe that one of the most wonderful things about this particular time in the history of touchstyle -- and it's easy to overlook this simple thing -- is that as players we now have an expanding choice of instruments and designs. These design discussions, along with discussions of new ways to look at tunings, just show the energy and growth in our field.

[traktor]

Originally posted by motormind
<snip> [My Shamray] plays pretty well now, even though the damper is of a hard material that makes an audioble "tick" every time I tap a note.

I can't quite tell from the Shamray's picture, but perhaps you could swap the string-mute material?

There's a discussion here ...
http://www.tappistry.org/forum/showthread.php?threadid=242

If you can use the "shelf liner" stuff discussed here, maybe it might be more to your liking?

[Consul]

Well, okay. Calling it a pickguard was just a matter of convention. ;)

I definitely see what you mean though, about making an instrument beautiful versus being easy and inexpensive to make. Trade-offs are always required.

Warr Guitars seems great if you really want a "no-compromise" design.

The Megatars look good for entry-level folks.

The Chapman Stick occupies territory somewhere in between these two extremes.

Does that sound about right?

[traktor]

Yeah, we all call them pickguards, including me.

If you're asking my (biased) opinion of the various manufacturers, I don't think it all falls quite that simply, though there's certainly nothing wrong with your view.

If you like the Warr guitar, I think you'll never be unhappy with such a choice. It is an excellent design with great sound, and IMHO they are beautifully well-made.

However, don't overlook Sticks (used) as an entry-level instrument. Because they've been made for a long time, there are more used Stick instruments available than anything else.

And although a number of folks think highly of the tone of the Mobius Megatar, I'd of course agree that our instruments in general are comparatively affordable.

Of course, although some people must economize -- we've all been there at one time or another -- for many people, the price isn't really a great barrier. Investing the time to learn to tap is probably a bigger concern to most newcomers!

There are a number of these instruments I've never played. I'd be curious to try a Shamray, a Solene, and a Belgrado for myself. And there's a new guy (Siggi), and I've seen several homebrews, the nicest so far being made by Steve Whitman (See Ola's photo at http://www.tapguitar.com/pics2001/dscn3112.jpg).

[rockola]

Originally posted by traktor
Instruments made entirely of wood with the pickups inserted from the back permit the expression of beautiful wood and finishes

You can insert the pickups from the front and still get away without a pickguard, if you plan the different cavities appropriately. Of course, it's more difficult, hence also more expensive.

[Glenn Drakeley]

>> You can insert the pickups from the front and still get away
>> without a pickguard, if you plan the different cavities
>> appropriately. Of course, it's more difficult, hence also more >> expensive.

My Box JC-35 has front mounted pickups, looks like it was a real pain in the *** to do too !!! One good feature here is that I can replace any of the pickups myself, no trip back to the manufacturer, standard off the shelf pickups. Small downside is that I can only choose single coil pickups without having to get the router out !!!! And no, while it sounds like a good idea, I have not replaced any of the five pickups yet !! I also do not see the need for a pickguard on this instrument.

[Consul]

Actually, I did come up with an odd idea last night...

Why not make the pickguard out of wood? You could use a nice hardwood like coco-bolo to give it a nice effect.

Two birds, one stone, and everyone's happy. :)

[traktor]

Originally posted by Consul
Why not make the pickguard out of wood? You could use a nice hardwood like coco-bolo to give it a nice effect.
Good idea.

[Bearguitars]

Hi Guys,

it have a big effect in the sound - how - the the pus are mounted.
Danny Ferrington have me inspired for it. He have bolted directly, without any springs, the neck pu on the body of his guitars. No space between pu and wood! In the past I´ve tried it on several (standard) guitars. The sound was definitivly more woody, beefy, ..., even better for me. But you can`t adjust that thing! Not very practical for tapguitars, only for special orders, when the customer exactly knows what he want.
On the other hand, a strat for an example have -normaly- a great sound. The pus are "hangs" only on a piece of plastic... It worx fine.

SIGGI
www.geocities.com/bearguitars

[Consul]

Wow, it's not very often someone says I had a good idea. :D

[dkobayas]

glen...do you mind telling me approximately how much the import tax was...i just ordered one of the new jcbs' ...i hope i can afford it...as it is, i'm in the process of selling 3 guitars...
also in process of buying a 8 string warr...but have +3months to come up w/$$ for the box

thanx

[Glenn Drakeley]

>> glen...do you mind telling me approximately how much the import tax was...i just ordered one of the new jcbs' ...i hope i can afford it...as it is, i'm in the process of selling 3 guitars...


Import fee was $311.11 on the declared value of about 2500 USD, details appear in the thread started by RJG on the Box announcement. I too have reserved a JCB-34, #004. Import fee for the JCB's will be significantly less as they're declared at 900 USD, see the RJG thread...................

Glenn

[rjgoos]

Glenn wrote:


> I too have reserved a JCB-34, #004. <


I can only assume that by now, both Traktor and Stu have named children after you, Glenn. Just giving you a hard time, actually I am jealous of your axe collection.


Jay

[dkobayas]

glen...sorry i missed that earlier...must be these late nites...

thanx again,