I'm new, too

[MatthewL329]

hey y'all,

my name's Matt Cross, I'm 21, from Rochester, NY. I have no tap experience or teaching, or equipment for that matter; I have a 6 string hollowbody electric guitar with a small body (about the size of a telecaster) with really low action and flatwound strings. It's made by a guy from New Brunswick who only makes a handful of guitars a year named Paul Echols... if I get some pictures of it, I'll post them.

So far, I've figured out how to tap two songs, Take Five by Paul Desmond, and River Man, by Nick Drake. I've been playing fingerstyle and flatpick guitar for a few years, and after hearing some Trey Gunn and Stanley Jordan, I thought I'd give tapping a try.

So I just thought I'd introduce myself. I look forward to exploring touchstyle music with you guys :)

[lemur821]

Hi Matt, I'm new, too, as well.

[rjgoos]

Well, welcome to the touch/tap world! Even though I had played the guitar my whole life, I had not heard of any of it until last summer, when my wife came home from a street fair and said...."I think you should come with me and see this guy playing some sort of instrument I've never seen before." It was one of the great Stick players, Bob Culbertson.

Since then, I found a used Stick, and I also tap a regular electric guitar, tuned in straight 4ths, and down two steps. I don't know where I'll end up in this touch/tap universe, but it is a lot of fun.

You will find enthusiastic owners of all brands of dedicated touch/tap instruments on this forum, and people who tap conventional guitars as well.

RJ Goos

[qwerty]

Hi Matt and everybody!

I´m also new to this forum so I thought I´d introduce myself too.

My name is anton and I´m a swedish guy who just found this wonderfull place for all of us tappers. This is a really great site and I´ll be happy to spend a lot of time searching through all the information here. I guess that there´s a lot of great players here that could teach me a great deal about this way of playing.

I´m an electric guitarrist and I play mostly rock. Earlier I was into shredding and practised a lot to inprove my technique. When I heard Jennifer Batten for the first time, I knew I had to learn how to tap. So I worked a lot on tapping in the style of Batten and TJ Helmereich but I never tried any other kind of stuff.
So I´m really new to tapping in the sense of playing bass, chords and melody at the same time. And now I thought that I`d give this Stanley Jordan-style a shot. It seems really hard and it certanly will take an really big effort to get somewhere.

I really don´t know where to start though, but I guess one could just make up a tune and practice the technique and coordination.
One of the problems I´ve had so far is that I´ve only got my 7-stringed guitar tuned in the standard manner. Now this presents a lot of problems when trying to play (anything really) bass and chords using my left hand, and melody with my right hand. My right hand allways seems to be in the way of my left hand. And if I decide that the left hand takes care of the four bottomstrings, and the right hand plays on the highest (in pitch) strings, the chords get too dark and the melody too high.
Now I figured out a way of restring and retuning my guitar so that I could get rid of the problems I taked about. But before I do that, I´d thought I´d ask if any of you guys have a tip or a great idea. I would be very, VERY happy for replies.

Thanks.

[rjgoos]

Qwerty,

I would be most interested in your tuning for your 7-string guitar, and I would guess that the Solene players here (a 7-string tap instrument) would be also.

As for me, I also have experimented with alternative tunings of a six-string Stratocaster copy. You need to realize, though, that I am not a professional musician, and never intend to tap a six-string guitar in public...this is all just for fun for me (the winters are long and cold where I live). If I sound awful, I am the only one who suffers.

I have been fooling around with just straight 4ths, starting with the lowest guitar string at either a B, C, or D. That works OK, but tapping a six-string guitar is a considerable challenge...it is like a chess game, where every move has to be planned ahead.

I have also been fooling around with a "mini-reverse-chapman" tuning, where I tune the lowest three strings in ascending 5ths (starting with the lowest string as a B), with the top three strings remaining in 4ths. You can do some of the cool 5ths 'bass' chords available to the Stick player on the lowest three strings, and I've worked out a few nice songs this way, but it is very limited.

So, I have had a lot of fun researching the problem, but not many answers. Of course, we here would be happy to learn of any tuning suggestions you have. Obviously a 7 string guitar would offer more possibilities than a six-string.

RJ Goos

[qwerty]

Thank you very much for your reply, RJ!

You seem to zero in on the same problems as I’ve got. I feel a bit limited with the standard tuning of a 7-stringed guitar. My wish is to not have to worry about what the other hand is doing. And I found the key in a lot of the instruments that tappers use. The idea to have separate strings and tunings for each hand is really great. That way I could play effortlessly with both hands and with no interference from the other hand. Of cause you all know that but to me this is GREAT news.

Now, I tried to incorporate this idea into a tuning for my 7-stringed guitar. I knew that I still would be very limited but at least not in the same way as before.

First of all, I’ve checked out a few posts and articles to understand the basic tunings that stick players and all the other instruments as well) seem to use. It was rather overwhelming to find out about the million ways of tuning you tapguitar. There were so many options and a lot of them seemed kind of strange to me. Because of my background as a guitarist, I had a hard time finding out the reason for having mirrored tunings on some of the instruments. Another thing that was kind of strange was the idea of having crossed hands. To me the obvious choice would be having two sets of strings, one for the right and one for the left hand played with uncrossed hands. The right hand would mostly take care of the melodypart and left hand would do the bass stuff. These were my first (and probably kind of naive) thoughts as I tried to get a vision of what would suit me best. But I still don’t understand some of the before mentioned ways of playing. Could someone please explain the advantage of any of the mentioned stuff? I guess I’m not bright enough to clear things out myself.

The tuning I’ve tried out is based on very guitaristic way of thinking. First of all, I’ve tuned all in 4ths because that’s what I’m used to. I really think it would be interesting to try to tune in 5ths, but for now that’s far too wild for me. But thanks again RJ for the ideas!
I wanted my left hand to play the bass, but I wanted it to play on the left-hand side of the fretboard. That way I wouldn’t have play with crossed hands.
And my right hand would obviously play melody on thinner strings. And the tuning between the separate sides should be parallel.

So the result was this (from what would normally be the bass-side of the fretboard): melody-strings D G C, and then the lower guitarstrings E A D G.
(The two D- and G-strings are the same pitch)

This surely doesn’t provide any range at all, but I could lay nice chords with a lot of dissonant notes near each other, which I like. And I can play quite low melodies and the difference between chords and melody isn’t very big any more.

(Tell me if I bore you with long and tiresome posts)

So, what do you think about this tuning. Is it stupid?

RJ, I’m really curious to hear what instrument you are playing and what tuning. It would also be very interesting to hear why you’ve chosen to play the way you do. I guess I have to choose a way and stick with that, so that I can get comfortable in playing the touch style. I highly doubt that I ever will, though.

[rjgoos]

Qwerty,

No, you don't write too much. I had a million questions when I first got started, I only have a thousand left...so I am making progress.

I think your tuning scheme for a 7-string is very interesting...straight 4ths, but with overlap in the middle. Yes, you are limited because of the number of strings, but this should not prevent you from coming up with some interesting arrangements.

But I would appeal to the more experienced players here...what do you think of Qwerty's tuning?

I think that tapping a six string is like playing chess...every move has to be thought out. Nice music can result, but it takes a lot of planning. The problem of hand interference is significant. My six-string is just a $100 Stratocaster copy that my son discarded when he got a much better guitar. I set the strings as low as possible, but the height of the frets are not very high, and it is hard to get much volume...but it is still fun.


RJ Goos

[rjgoos]

I forgot to mention, Qwerty, if you tune your 7-string guitar in straight 4ths (B-E-A-D-G-C-F), it would be the same tuning as a Solene, and instructional materials for the Solene (for example, the chord browser), as well as the MP3s stored there, and the "Bourree" video, would have at least a little applicability to your situation.

I don't have a Solene, so I wouldn't know if the instruction book that comes with a Solene would be applicable to a 7-string guitar, but maybe one of the Solene owners here could comment.

RJ Goos

[qwerty]

Thanks again, RJ!

The Solene seemed very interesting, so I went to the site and found the “Bourree video”. Now this was exactly what I needed to get going. I’m now in the progress of learning this little piece. It’s really fun to play and I felt very lucky having another 7-stringed guitar laying around with the standard tuning. And as a matter of fact, I already been tuning my guitar in strait 4ths for some time, so I thought playing the Solene would be almost the same thing as playing my guitar. But when I checked out the tabbed chords, it seemed that the Solene was tuned in exactly the same way as a standard 7-stringed guitar, in other words, not completely strait 4ths. Although this doesn’t matter, as I tend to work out chords and stuff by myself, it seemed kind of weird to me. I didn’t really understand why.

However, I’ve come to realize that the tuning I talked about in my earlier post, is VERY limited. A lot of melodies need greater range than I’ve got right now. And its also almost impossible to play moving bass and chords with the left hand when only having four strings for that. But I really wanted to try to have it arranged this way, so I probably will figure out one or to songs, just to know what it feels like.

And RJ, from what I’ve read I understand that you haven’t been playing for a very long time. Have you got any tips on how to make progress? It would also be very fun to hear anything that you’ve recorded. (If you’ve recorded anything, that is.) That way I would have something to strive for.

qwerty

[rjgoos]

I haven't recorded anything while tapping my six-string Stratocaster copy. Maybe if it snows again this weekend (we have almost 60 cm of snow on the ground already in town), I'll have time to record something...I'm not very good with the six-string.

After one and two months of owning a Chapman Stick, I recorded two short pieces, you can find them at:

http://members.ifmcs.net/rjgoos/Public/Music/

Just click on "Stick Music".

The MP3s from my acoustic guitar CD are there, too, and also a practice session for a talent show that I was in last spring where I work.

Again, this is all just for fun for me. If people like it, fine, if they don't...well it didn't cost them anything, so they can't complain.

RJ Goos

[qwerty]

Wow, thats just great for such a short period of time! I'm very impressed. If you could play like that after just two months, then what could you do by now?

I really liked your little songs and will try to play them soon. Right now, after hearing that, my desire for a stick is huge! I also liked your tone. Some tappers or instruments or what ever, seem to produce a very thin kind of tone which I dislike. But yours was more like a jazzguitar which is what I'm after. :)

I went to Steve Adelsons site and watched a few videos. Damn, he was good!! That was a real kick in the as. His frasing and seemingly effordless playing knocked me to the ground.

I guess I'm in for some serious practising from now on. :)

[rjgoos]

Qwerty,

Thank you for the kind words about my playing. Unfortunately, my progress after the first two months has not been as rapid. Perhaps my technique is poor, or perhaps I just over-did the playing, but I developed a tendonitis in my left wrist and arm after two months of playing the Stick for 2 hours a day. Many kind people have made suggestions on how to improve the ergonomics of my play, but I have yet to discover how to play the Stick without pain. The vast majority of Stick players play without any discomfort, so the problem is probably with me and not with the Stick. My hands are very small for a man (if I extend my hand fully, only 12.5 cm from the tip of the thumb to the tip of the littlest finger), and I think this is the core of the problem. Even the most basic left-hand Stick positions are a physical stretch for me. Most of the great Stick players have large hands.

I think my Stick is a very high-quality instrument, and it has very nice tone, especially when processed through a small acoustic effects pedal (which is what you heard on the recording). I have no complaints about it as an instrument, but the past few months I have been trying to decide if I should have my Stick re-set-up for "uncrossed" play, or to get a different instrument with an uncrossed tuning, or perhaps an instrument with different ergonomics altogether.

Regarding Steve Adelson...yes, he is wonderful...he makes playing the Stick look so easy and relaxed.

RJ Goos

[rjgoos]

(sorry, I meant to say 12.5 cm from tip of the index finger to the tip of the little finger)

RJ

[FretDragon]

In my limited attempts to tap instruments with a single string set (usually 6, 7, or 8 strings tuned in ascending order), I have found that the type of technique you see exhibited on the Solene site where 2 hands work in unison seems to work best *FOR ME*.

I am also working on acoustic instruments where the number of usable frets is extremely limited as compared to a bass or electric guitar.

For electric instruments, I would suggest taking lead from the Megatar website and define a specific "region" for each hand if you choose to play seperated bass and melody. They do provide 8-string ascending 4ths tuning in their examples, so just ignore a string on one end or the other of their examples on your 7.

[murphy]

hey fellas,

I saw RJs ask for some Solene-player input and thought I'd oblige.

I should correct a misperception first and you were right Anton, the Solene is not tuned in straight fourths but rather in standard 7-string guitar tuning. At least that's how it ships and that's the tuning on Rich's video clips on his site. Obviously you could tune it in straight fourths or in any other tuning that would work on a 7-string guitar. I know some Solene players do tune in straight fourths, this is maybe is where RJ got that notion.

When I first got my Solene I thought straight fourths was a smarter tuning but I missed exploiting those different shapes that the major third in there gives you and quickly went back to standard tuning. I do think however that the Solene, being a 7-string, lends itself to special tunings.

I don't think Anton's tuning would work for me but I think that stuff is totally a personal/practical matter. Experimenting is key to success in tapping. I think anything that sounds good and doesn't hurt you is good technique. We're all still inventing how to play these instruments. That's a big part of the fun I think.

I guess the Solene question above had to do with the manual. I'd say the manual would apply to tapping a regular 7-string guitar since the mechanics are the same. My recollection is that it sort of assumes a basic guitar knowledge and shows you how to think about chords and things and has exercises and tunes. Of course it just doesn't address some problems you'd have on guitar like open string noise or false notes ringing from the lower fret. I imagine guys who do serious tapping on a standard instrument develop special techniques for dealing with stuff like that.

I wonder if you've checked out the chord browser/chord entry pages on the Solene site. You can look up voicings for chords by category in the browser which can be good for giving you ideas of different ways to break things up. The really cool thing is the chord entry screen, though. You can chose whatever group of notes you want and have them all displayed on a fretboard grid. One cool feature is that you can make the tuning whatever you want so you could even set it to this unusual tuning that Anton describes and punch in the notes for a scale, arpeggio or chord, and it will display them up and down the neck in that tuning. You can also set a "highlight" note like for instance the root of the scale/chord and it will visually emphasize that one. You can then pick out a chord voicing and submit it and the site tries to identify the chord. I've never seen anything quite like it on the web. I think it's pretty neat, check it out.

http://home.flash.net/~solene/chart.html

oh yeah and welcome to the board Matt and Anton, good luck and have fun!

murph

[FretDragon]

Thanks for the post Murph.

There have been a couple references in this thread to a "Solene Manual". As a 6/7 string guitarist, I think it may make for some interesting reading and contemplation.

Can you give a brief description of the manual's contents? I will also approach the Solene builder about buying a copy seperately.

Jeff

[murphy]

Hi Jeff,

I don't remember much more than I mentioned above at the moment. It's been quite a while since I had my nose in it. I'll dig it out tonight when I get home and post a better description soon.

cheers,
murph

[qwerty]

Oh no, RJ, I feel terrible about your wrist. That’s really sad. Hope you’ll recover and find a better way to play real soon. I’ve understood that big hands are almost necessary for playing with ease on a stick. My hands are also quite small, but not as small as yours are. Hopefully I’ll be able to play on a stick someday. I guess I’ll know then if my hands are too small.

I’ve also got a question for you. When I listen to your recorded stick-tunes, It sounds like your melody hand is hammering-on every note, even when you are descending a scale. Is that true? It seems like a lot of players do so. At least it sounds like it.

Thanks Jeff for the tips. I’ll definitely check out the Megatar page for some help and inspiration.

And thanks Murph for that insightful post. I’ve already checked out the Solene site and yes, it’s real neat. I have one question though. When I tap a note on the D-string with my right hand first finger, I have a really hard time holding that note while tapping on a note on the same fret but on the G-string with my second finger (while still holding that first note). The second finger doesn’t get enough space and looses power because of that the first finger is in the way. When I’ve seen the Solene, it seems like the frets are bent so that when executing a move like this, the second finger would have a lot more space to hit the string firmly. Am I wrong?

One last question. Is there any difference between the amount of space between the strings on a guitar and the space between the strings of any other tap-instrument?

Anton

[murphy]

Originally posted by qwerty
And thanks Murph for that insightful post. I’ve already checked out the Solene site and yes, it’s real neat. I have one question though. When I tap a note on the D-string with my right hand first finger, I have a really hard time holding that note while tapping on a note on the same fret but on the G-string with my second finger (while still holding that first note). The second finger doesn’t get enough space and looses power because of that the first finger is in the way. When I’ve seen the Solene, it seems like the frets are bent so that when executing a move like this, the second finger would have a lot more space to hit the string firmly. Am I wrong?

One last question. Is there any difference between the amount of space between the strings on a guitar and the space between the strings of any other tap-instrument?



great question Anton and you're exactly right. This factor is one of the top 3 or 4 reasons why I like the Solene design. I'm glad you asked because I think when most people see the slanted frets they just think it's weird and this benefit doesn't occur to them. But yes, the finger crowding I would experience trying to tap a melodic line with a fourth in it (or major third between the 2nd & 3rd strings) disappears on the Solene because of the fret slant. Playing the interval of a fourth feels similar to playing a tritone would on a regular guitar, but it doesn't have the effect of shifting the problem to the major third interval. It's still at enough of an angle to be comfortable as well. It's true that once you get up to a major sixth, the notes are side-by-side but at that point you've skipped a string, so the finger-crowding isn't happening. One of several reasons I pretty much stopped doing any serious tapping on guitar after I bought my Solene. I don't know if this issue is a problem for s***k players or not, probably the much longer scale makes it a non-issue until you get to higher frets?

on the other question, it seems to me that my Solene string spacing seems about the same as my strat. Don't know about other instruments.

murph

[lemur821]

RJ, what tunes are you playing in the two mont recording? They're both bery familiar, and I'm sure that I've sung them both on numerous occasions, but I can't place them. Something pastoral, right?

Sorry to hear about your wrist, I'd be very upset if I had an injury like that. I'd look into an uncrossed tuning if I were you. Even with my 17 cm index to pinky reach, I think that a crossed tuning would be a bit of a stretch. You might also try a position that doesn't put your thumbs behind the neck. That would also allow you to bring your thumbs to bear, and that must be handy, since Yo Yo Ma does it.

[rjgoos]

There are three kinds of stretches that come to bear on the left hand/wrist/arm when playing "cross-handed".

One (the one that most people mention) is the stretch of the hand across the board, for a crossed-handed technique, but the right hand has this stretch, too. The second (which I think is most important in my case) is the stretch due to the width between the frets at the lower-numbered-fret-end of the instrument. With standard crossed handed play, the right hand is higher up on the neck, where the frets are closer together, and the stretches less. I simply have a hard time doing some of the most common left hand chords in 5ths, as the stretches are too much for my hand size (...I know, I know, Traktor...there IS an alternative...).

The third stretch has to do with bending of the left wrist. One hopes to minimize this as much as possible, but some bending is inevitable.

Most players have no troubles at all, but I have had my share. It is discouraging, because touch/tap style is SO much fun.

I think my left wrist/arm take it so badly, compared to my right, is that they are doing fundamentally different things. My left is trying to play (and hold....) chord arpeggios, whereas my right hand is playing melody lines, and seldom playing and holding chords. I think it is this, in combination with my small hands, and the wider distance between frets that my left hand has to negotiate, causes my problems. When I play more of a counterpoint sort of style, when I am not trying to play and hold chords with the left hand, I get much less pain.


RJ Goos

[murphy]

Originally posted by FretDragon
Thanks for the post Murph.

There have been a couple references in this thread to a "Solene Manual". As a 6/7 string guitarist, I think it may make for some interesting reading and contemplation.

Can you give a brief description of the manual's contents? I will also approach the Solene builder about buying a copy seperately.

Jeff

I dug out my manual last night. It assumes you have a guitar background and some basic familiarity with tapping. It also assumes a rudimentary knowledge of music theory. It starts out with an explaination of how to wear it and adjust it for correct playing position. He sets out a tablature notation that includes indication of hand/finger. It talks about the basic mechanics of playing intervals and a way of categorizing the mechanics of two-handed chord/arpeggio construction. Then he runs you through examples and then exercises of diatonic 7th chords applying these mechanics. Then the complexity gets upped with more notes per hand. Each section that has exercises usually ends with a little etude or two that apply what was just learned. Then he gives fingerings and exercises for scales and more music for that. Then there's some more pieces including some Bach and Schuman. All music and exercises include two-hand tablature. I think that's pretty much it. I think it would be good for anybody hungry for some practicing material for 7-string tapping. As I was looking at it last night I realized that I never did work through the majority of the actual material but it's one of those books that sets you in motion well. I remember how it quickly led me to working out a bunch of two-handed pentatonic patterns even though there's no pentatonics in the book just because the focus on mechanics gives you a foundation you can apply to whatever you want.

cheers,
murph

[FretDragon]

Nice! I'll have to see if I can order a manual seperately as a potential buyer.

[FretDragon]

Just as a followup to this conversation. I did order and received lat night the fabled "Solene Manual".

OMG! This is exactly the polyphonic tapping style I have been aspiring to on my own, but just couldn't define. And the fretboard logic outlined is exactly what I needed.

Even though I have a new 7-string acoustic guitar on order, now I must also continue my search for an affordable second-hand Solene (or maybe even some other 7 or 8 string tapping instrument to get me going until the right Solene comes my way...)

Jeff

[rjgoos]

I'm glad to hear that the Solene manual was helpful. Since it is tuned the same as a 7-string guitar (my mistake earlier....I thought the Solene was tuned in straight 4ths), the information should be transferrable.

Just curious...how "comprehensive" is the Solene instruction book? By that, I mean, is it just an introduction, or does it take the student quite a ways along in learning how to play?


RJ Goos

[FretDragon]

Plenty of exercises and "shape" theory. Enough material that will give me at least a month of work to master. I'm at work now, so can't make an actual page count, but definitely more than I expected. I'd call it a mini method book.

Jeff

[murphy]

glad to hear you're happy with the book, Jeff. Us 7-stringers gotta stick together. Good luck!

murph

[stevehollx]

Is the solene manual in tab or grand staff score?

And how much was this manual?

[FretDragon]

I think it was $12 plus shipping. Can't beat that!

Jeff