Frustrated with only six strings

[Don Genaro]

Hello everyone. I am STILL trying to decide what instrument to purchase whilst tapping away on my 6 string Carvin electric. I am desperate for more strings and was very intrigued by the Chapman Stick/NS, but as you all probably know the wait time is indefinite for aquiring one. Anyone have an opinion on an instrument with similar capabilities as the Stick/NS as far as it's versatility ?

[mrINFINITY]

Don,

There are probobly some people on here who can answer your question better than I, but here are a couple options I can think of:
-Try looking on ebay (they almost always have sticks)
-Go with a Megatar (www.megatar.com)
Traktor will be able to talk with you about acquiring a megatar, from what I've seen (though i've never played one) they are quality instruments and compare very well with the stick. That and the cheapest model is only about $1000 which is a pretty good deal.

-Alan

[Don Genaro]

Thanks for the reply mrINFINITY.
I have considered the Megatar and Stick, but the the thing that the Stick/NS had to offer was the ability to tap, strum or pluck. I am hoping to get something with that kind of flexibility.

[mrINFINITY]

Don,

well, there are two options i can think of that would help you then. You can either get a doubleneck with a 6/7 string guitar, or a guitar/bass, or whatever. Personally I think that would be the best way to go because when I used to have my warr phalanx when the strings were on the same neck even though they were spread further apart than normal touch guitars the bass side would bleed into the guitar side when I had distortion on it.
Or you could always just try to find a used 8+ string electric guitar. I am trying to sell my conklin 8 string right now, there is a a picture of it in the swapmeet section. I think it needs a fretjob before it would be a great tapping instrument though, I mostly fingerpick on it.
Just as an afterthought, if I ever get another tapping instrument it is probobly going to be doubleneck with at least one guitar sized scale because that bass sized scale with melody strings on it sounds very dull to me compared to the brightness of a guitar.

-Alan

[traktor]

For both tapping and more standard play, you might also consider the Warr Guitar. It's quality-made, has great tone, and Mark Warr's strap has the specific benefit of permitting you to play with the instrument full upright (normal tapping position) or semi-horizontal (normal picking position). It is specifically made to be playable either way.

It is not as good as a normal bass (which has wider string spacing) for the specific techniques of snaping and poping. [Probably you think I've mis-spelled snapping and popping, but I have not. Snaping and Poping are official terms of Mark Warr, as a matter of history, though I will say he's had the decency to avoid Snaping(R) and Poping(R). If this is complete gobbly-gook to you, then I apologise. These are old jokes from long ago.]

Anyway, for picking and tapping, don't forget the Warr, as it does a good job for both.

[rockola]

Originally posted by mrINFINITY
if I ever get another tapping instrument it is probobly going to be doubleneck with at least one guitar sized scale because that bass sized scale with melody strings on it sounds very dull to me compared to the brightness of a guitar.

The Novax fanned fret system could possibly alleviate some of this problem. (I wouldn't describe the long scale melody sound as "dull", I'd rather say something like "mellow", but it doesn't sound like a guitar, and I can see why that could be a problem for some.) Charlie Hunter is probably the most famous fanned fret proponent, although he doesn't tap. Megatars can have the Novax system as an option. From what I hear, independent luthiers can also license the Novax system for one-offs, and it won't add a disproportionate amount to the price.

See the Novax Guitars (http://www.novaxguitars.com/) website for more info.

[rjgoos]

Don wrote:

>as you all probably know the wait time is indefinite for aquiring one.<


This is a subject of much lamenting lately on the discussion group Stickwire. As far as I know, the wait for a Warr is also significant. I do hope this is because business is going very good for both companies. As far as I am concerned, there is a critical shortage of tap/touch style instruments on this planet.

Used Sticks can be obtained on eBay. I think Glen Murch (murchmusic.com) has a used polycarb for sale.

The wait for a Solene is in terms of weeks, not months, but if you want an instrument that can be plucked and tapped, it may not be appropriate for your needs.

I don't know what the wait is, currently, for a Megatar.


R. Jay Goos

[mrINFINITY]

Rockola,

I actually considered getting a charlie hunter signature guitar a while back right after I sold my warr. But I didn't have the money at the time. Right now I do but i've decided to wait on that.
About the fanned fret megatar, I couldn't imagine trying to play a touch guitar with the strings arranged like that. You'd have to reach across the entire neck to get the low B string! :).
What I have thought about though was maybe a fanned fret baritone guitar of a doubleneck on the bottom (7 or 8 strings) with maybe a 27-32" scale length spread on it. and then the same type of thing on the higher neck, just shorter scale length with the frets fanned upside down so the right hand can approach the neck from the correct side without playing upside down.
Another Idea I had (which is probobly just a crazy stupid one) is to make the bottom neck split bass/guitar like charlie hunters guitar, so that way bass and rhythm guitar could be played at the same time with one hand. But talk about ridiculously hard! hehe.

-Alan

[traktor]

Originally posted by mrINFINITY
I couldn't imagine trying to play a touch guitar with the strings arranged like that. You'd have to reach across the entire neck to get the low B string!
That is correct, but it's not a problem ... *IF* you have correct upright positioning.

When you have correct upright positioning, your left wrist is straight, or nearly straight. When your left wrist is near straight, the distance your left fingers can reach is a great distance: all the way from your finger-tips, to the furthest *web*of your thumb.

It's only when you have a collapsed posture (shoulders rolled forward, head forward to watch the fretboard, tuners lowered so you can peek over the fretboard, and your left wrist then bent that your reach becomes shortened.

Your reach now is reduced to a much smaller distance: from your fingertips to the inside of the knuckle between finger and palm. This distance is generally about two inches less. *And* you risk hand injury due to bad leverage IMHO.

When you maintain upright posture (and stop looking at the fretboard, which will improve your speed and accuracy), then you won't be worried about shortened reach. It's not a problem.

[mrINFINITY]

Traktor,

I'm not saying it can't be done, i'm just saying what's the point. As I was taught generally you want to have your thumb behind the string you're playing on in a run as much as possible. This is obviously not true in alot of touch guitar styles because it's impossible sometimes. I actually move my thumb up and down the back of the neck when I do a run so it's directly behind the string i'm playing on, that way I can keep good hand posture the entire run (ie. moving my whole arm up and down instead of bending the wrist to move to different strings.)
Also, comfort for me does not equal having to reach across 12 strings to get to a note I need, which is why it just totally amazes me that anyone would even want to consider doing any crossed hands tuning. When I used to own a touch guitar it was a Warr Phalanx and I chose that for the specific purpose that it was 10x more comfortable to play than all the others I tried. I'm obviously not the touch guitar expert but it just seems kind of impractible to me.
What might be cool to me though is if you guys produced a toneweaver with the frets going in V's on each side and played it uncrossed. Like the phalanx tuning, but with the guitar side reversed.
Touch instruments may be a totally differant brand of instrument than guitar and require a differant technique, but I don't see why they have to sacrafice coziness because sometimes the less distance you have to reach, the more cozy you are playing (like switching from a stick to a 4 string bass, I know you know how comfortable the 4 string seems after doing all those big stretches for so long). Theres no reason I can see why that comfort can't be there from the start.

-Alan

[traktor]

Although, as best I can tell, the "thumb behind the string you're playing" seems to make some sense, I personally don't like the "cramped fingers" feel of uncrossed, though many folks like it, *especially* if you want each hand to be able to range all up and down the fretboard, or if your hands or small, or if your posture is in fact going to be less than upright.

I've thought about the "herringbone" fanned-fret design, and other than lots more work and higher cost (and some doubts whether anybody would want to buy it). I say "herringbone" because this question usually comes up in relation to bass in inverted fifths. But it could be done if the guitar-maker wanted to essentially make two fretboards and get them mounted as one perfectly flat plane.

I don't think it will be me, but perhaps as a challenging homebrew project ...

One of the wonderful things about our world is the current explosion of interest in alternative tunings and arrangements. In a hundred years or so, we'll probably know all about it.

[mrINFINITY]

Traktor,

'Cramped' is just a dysphemism for my 'Cozy'. I understand though, to each their own. You may like the crossed hands feel but to me I just see it as being less comfortable and a flexibility limiter.

-Alan

[traktor]

Originally posted by mrINFINITY
Traktor,
'Cramped' is just a dysphemism for my 'Cozy'. I understand though, to each their own. You may like the crossed hands feel but to me I just see it as being less comfortable and a flexibility limiter.
-Alan
Hi, Alan,

Well, you're in good company.

Lots of excellent players enjoy the feel and action of uncrossed, and it has a lot of logic going for it. It may prove to be the most popular arrangement over time.

[rjgoos]

Traktor wrote:

>Lots of excellent players enjoy the feel and action of uncrossed, and it has a lot of logic going for it. It may prove to be the most popular arrangement over time.<

It is still overwhelming to me to read through Daniel Schell's tap guitar tunings page (http://www.clicmusic.be/tunings-tg.html), and to also consider the wide array of instruments out there...Stick/Warr/Megatar/Solene/Bunker/Box, etc. The whole touch/tap guitar universe is still in full-blown evolution...what will emerge at the end cannot be predicted. Who would have predicted during the Jurassic, that the most enduring form would be the turtle?

So many instruments.....so many tunings....so little time....


R. Jay Goos

[Don Genaro]

Howdy,
I e-mailed the folks at Solene the other day for prices
and availability, but got no reply. Does anyone know what's up ?
Thanks,
DG

[rjgoos]

I exchanged e-mails with Rich a week or two ago.

I believe he said that the price is now $850, and includes a stand and instruction book. He also said that a short trial period (as is also available on a Megatar) is possible through his sales agent, Texas Music Co. I also seem to recall that Rich said that the wait for an instrument was perhaps a couple weeks (not months).


R. J. Goos

[mrINFINITY]

I don't really think any tuning will emerge overall as the main one in tap instruments. Unless you consider that emmett chapman's 5ths/4ths tuning kinda already has.
I think that the touch instrument will turn into the same thing the harp guitar turned into 100 years ago and before we know it touch instruments will be a thing of the past.

[FretDragon]

Ummm, harp guitar is gaining considerable popularity again now - especially since Hedges brough more visibility to them before his tragic death. Take a look at www.harpguitar.com for details.

[mrINFINITY]

Fretdragon,

I don't agree with you. Harp guitars are not coming back and they never will. They've been dead for quite a long time now. There are only a few real good players that can be named anymore, like John Doan and Muriel Anderson.
I think touch guitars are more or less the same. It's something that looks cool, sounds unique, and can get you gigs easy if you know how to play it well. In my opinion the touch guitar will never have the same tone quality as two seperate instruments being fretted and picked. But that's just me.

[rockola]

In my opinion the touch guitar will never have the same tone quality as two seperate instruments being fretted and picked.

I'm sure there was someone in Dinant, Belgium in the 19th Century saying to Adolphe Sax: "In my opinion the saxophone will never have the same tone quality as the clarinet."

I think it's fairly obvious that tapping will not replace fretting and picking. However, that doesn't mean it's a failed experiment.

[FretDragon]

Infinity, before jumping into a defense mode (as I could probably name more major harp guitar players than I can tap guitar players), I'm sitting here on a Thursday morning scratching my head trying to figure out your apparent sarcasm. This *is* after all, a tap guitar forum, and you seem to be dissing them more than the harps...

Jeff

[traktor]

Originally posted by mrINFINITY
In my opinion the touch guitar will never have the same tone quality as two seperate instruments being fretted and picked. But that's just me. Hi, mrINFINITY,

I generally agree. They don't sound the same. They sound different. You can make them sound *more* different with preamps and processing, or you can make them sound *less* different with preamps and processing.

Of course, guitars and basses sound different from each other as well. A Les Paul sounds different than a Stratocaster.

And one guitar or bass sounds different from itself, too, when you pick it near the neck or pick it near the bridge.

Yup. They all sound different.

I don't know anything about harp guitars.

I do know something about touch-style instruments. The numbers tell us that more are being made, and more are being played. So, at the present time, the touch-style world is expanding.

I personally suspect that the current expansion of interest in two-handed tapping is partly a by-product of advances in pickup and amplification. (Listen to Jimmie Webster recordings circa 1955 for great technique but sound quality that's inferior to today's home equipment.) I suspect that the convenience and new possibilities provided by two-handed tapping may be more instrumental (hah!) in fueling expansion rather than the marvellous new tone afforded by this construction. But as to what tones will be most popular in future, who knows? As to how tapping and picking will exist in a hundred years, who knows? Maybe the accordion and kazoo will dominate pupolar music. Or harp guitar.

[mrINFINITY]

I've definately tried my share of touchstyle instruments and am finally past them I think. I've played sticks, I used to own a warr, and i did some bach 2 part inventions on my electric guitar but none of it had the sound quality or flexibility of fingerstyle in my opinion.
What i'm kind of interested in now is the Charlie Hunter signature Novax guitar, I just tried one a few days ago and it rocks.
When I was first into touch instruments I thought "wow, that's cool, I want to do that". Whenever I showed it to someone else I either got the response "wow, he's playing 2 things at once", "geez, that things huge", or "i don't think it sounds as good as a guitar or bass". When I look back now I think that everybody was right.

[traktor]

Originally posted by mrINFINITY
I've definately tried my share of touchstyle instruments and am finally past them I think. ... <snip> ... When I look back now I think that everybody was right.
[me laughs]Good one, mrINFINITY! Maybe it's like a very slow flu bug, caught in one year, recovered from in another! And maybe you've hit upon the simple answer to life's puzzle: *everybody* is right!

[rjgoos]

traktor wrote:

> And maybe you've hit upon the simple answer to life's puzzle: *everybody* is right! <


Amen. Preach it, Mr. Infinity. My wife plays a $15, beat up, classical guitar that she found at a garage sale....and makes it sing.


R J

[rockola]

And what's with that Bela Fleck guy? I mean, he plays the... BANJO! And... it sounds GOOD! Sheesh! And how about the drummer in his band? His instrument is... NOT TRADITIONAL? Call the Pigeonhole Police! These villains must be stopped!

[eraserhead101]

Hey, Don
take a look at jim wright warr guitar.go to the web site to get the link.He calls it blackie.

[mrINFINITY]

I thought by everyone it was obvious which people I was talking about. You can't take a fragment from a paragraph so it is more ambigious than I meant it.
But like I said, I have no problem with people who play touch guitars, but in my opinion half the people that play them just want them as a gimmick because it's an attention grabber. No offense to you guys by that. I really don't think touch guitars will ever go mainstream or survive much longer.

[mrINFINITY]

Eraserhead,

I just noticed that you're in modesto. I am in Madera, about an hour and a half drive south of you. I've met jim wright also and he's a pretty cool guy. Definately a serious musician.

[rjgoos]

Mr. Infinity wrote:

>I really don't think touch guitars will ever go mainstream or survive much longer.<


Who can tell? Demand seems to be good, customers of Mr. Chapman and Mr. Warr have to wait many months for instruments. Perhaps more significantly, the prices for used touch/tap instruments on eBay are strong. You may be right, touchstyle may not "survive much longer", but at least current trends would argue that the current situation is at least stable.

And you may be right that touch guitars may never be mainstream. But they sure are fun to play.

RJ Goos

[mrINFINITY]

Rjgoos,

yah, they are kind of neat to play and watch other people play which is a huge part of reason they are selling so much. It's something new. There are guitarists that can sit and strum chords inthe key of G for 50 years straight, and then there are those who don't feel challenged enough and get kind of bored with the old 6 string guitar, and everything inbetween. Which is why i'm trying to save a couple thousand more dollars for an 8 string classical guitar. I write some music and most of my repertoire is stuff i arranged from other instruments, so I think it'll be suited very well for me. I tried the arranging thing on the warr guitar I had but it was definately the anti-classical music instrument as far as tone was concerned. It produces a decent jazz or rock sound, but it's not something that handles a debussy prelude very well at all.

[BCroad]

mrINFINITY,

I noticed that you're looking for an 8-string classical. Ebay has an 8-string classical guitar and a 10-string classical guitar.

Bryan

[mrINFINITY]

Brian,

Thanks for the tip, but there is a specific luthier I want to build me the 8 string. His name is Adrian Lucas and he has the most awesome sounding 6 string classicals ever. He said he'd build me an 8 string with fanned frets so I think i'm gonna go for that.

-Alan