ZenTapper

[traktor]

Special news ...


ZenTapper (http://zentapper.com)


-- Traktor

[arsacane]

Looks like a Taplader to me...

I think the Taplader concept is simply brilliant; thinking outside the box to get a cheap entry level tapper via a clever design, unusual (in a tapper / guitar) materials and a well though manufacturing process (a few CNC aluminum pieces plus some nuts and bolts). RJ came here with an outstanding design!
Now coming back to the "zentapper", I personally believe that 1200$ completely defeats the idea of a cheap tapper.

Cheers, Daniel.

[Zen Archer]

I have to agree with arsacane, whittle that price down to $500 and my check will be in the mail.

[rjgoos]

I take the appearance of the ZenTapper as a complement. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery after all.

What's the scale length?

[bass45]

sorry rj but i wont be givein someone else moeny for something that you came up with.....:(

[strictlybox]

I take the appearance of the ZenTapper as a complement. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery after all.

What's the scale length?

So RJG, is ZenTapper a joint venture between the two of you or is Traktor flying solo on the next generation TapLadder ??

[traktor]

Guys,

It *is* the TapLadder concept.

And before you go off, please know that I communicated with RJ before this project, and obtained his blessing.

(And that reminds me. It would be a good idea to add credit to RJ for the original design idea to the ZenTapper website (http://zentapper.com)!) [edit: -- DONE]


You see, I too thought the TapLadder was a brilliant idea, and if this discussion reminds folks here of the TapLadder concept, and if you wish to trot down to the hardware store and find the parts and cut them and drill them, and build a TapLadder, then I totally encourage anyone to do so.


Why did I take on this project, resurrecting the TapLadder concept?

I took on the project for several reasons, but one of the reasons is that what we learned from the TapLadder project -- which we saw developing right here on Tappistry.Org -- was that pretty much nobody seemed to want to go to the hardware store and build their own! Amazing!

That surprised me, but there you are. As far as we heard here, I think not one single person ever did it, though RJ showed us how. He did what he could. We do what we can.

(How do we make the world a better place? We do what we can.)


As regards the ZenTapper ... as always, one good idea creates another one ... and since I had a TapLadder, and since it actually sounds extremely good, there were some things I wanted to be better -- for example --

* I wanted it to feel better to the hands, to be smooth.

* I wanted edgedot markers.

* I wanted the structure to be very rigid, not depending upon screws or bolts to hold the 'squareness' of the base structure, upon which *everything* depends.

* I wanted it to be a little prettier, if it were possible, with no protruding sharp edges or screw ends.

* I wanted it to be supportable with a strap *or* a crossbar.

* I wanted it to have good volume controls.

* I wanted it to have the electronics enclosed, to avoid buzz and hum in the pickups from fluorescent lights, etc.

* I wanted the bridge to have fully adjustable saddles.

* I wanted the structure to admit of alternate pickups.

* There are other things, but the most important one is ...

* I wanted people to be able to get one, ready made, set up and ready to play, at a reasonable price.


What would it take? I wondered. And so I figured it out. And to my eternal delight, after a few prototype revisions, and using some stable custom built parts, it worked brilliantly!


Was there anything *wrong* with the original brilliant TapLadder concept?

No.

So why is the world not playing TapLadders today?


Here's my thinking. I'd be interested to hear your ideas about it ...

Here on Tappistry, as the TapLadder project developed, it seems to me that what we observed was:

* As far as I know, not one person ever went to the trouble of buying parts and building one from the hardware store (which was the core brilliance of the tapladder concept)

* This is not necessarily from either laziness or fear. For many people, when they consider available time, and what their time is worth, it may be a way better investment of time and money to buy a Megatar or a Stick!

* As far as I noticed, nobody showed much interest in building from kit parts and assembling them either.

* As far as I observed here on this forum, only when RJ offered to build them and ship them did this brilliant concept actually get into people's hands.

* In the process, RJ learned that (according to what I understood from what he told me) it's not enough to be able just to build them. There's the requirement for ongoing obtaining of parts, cutting and drilling and prepping parts, getting the specialized parts (pickups, pots, outjack, tuners, bridge, fret-rods, and cnc-cut rails to hold the fret-rods, strap, the custom extra-long strings, etc etc etc.)

* If it's to actually *happen*, it also needs: an office, phone, email, website, electricity, a shop, bookkeeping, advertising, a custom pickup, and people to do the work of webbing, selling, bookkeeping, buying parts, building in the shop, taking out the trash, paying the bills, etc etc etc. (RJ, if I'm mis-remembering or got it wrong, please feel free to correct me.)

* So -- although this is a small sample here on Tappistry with the TapLadder project, and not very reliable statistically -- it appears that we learned that only if the thing could be purchased, already built and ready to ship, would it actually go into use, providing the brilliant sound, exceptional stability, and a price far below other alternatives.

Let me repeat that.

What we learned by observation .. was that only if the instrument could be easily purchased, already built and set-up and ready to ship, would it actually go into use, providing the brilliant sound, exceptional stability, and a price below other alternatives.


So we have a brilliant concept, and a small test which appears to reveal that the brilliant concept will only actually benefit the world if it's manufactured, offered for sale, and shipped. And it's obviously going to help if the builder has a shop and office and webskills and everything that goes with that.

That, of course, with some design enhancements to the instrument itself, is exactly what we've done.


Pricing?

Now for $500, if I ever wish to build and sell them for less than the cost of getting the parts together, dude, I'll be there! (Sharpen your pencil and figure it out; you'll see.)

Until such a day, it will have to suffice that it be the least-expensive and best-sounding tapping instrument you've ever seen or played.

Hopefully that will interest people.

We do what we can.


-- Traktor


PS: And for the first ten who take action, of course, it can be had for only $995. Perhaps, as you consider it, and consider it from the different angles, you may discover that this may be just what you've been hoping for. And it actually exists. (Always a big plus.)

Happy tappy!

:)

[traktor]

So RJG, is ZenTapper a joint venture between the two of you ...For what it's worth, I've spoken to Jay in the past to see if he had any interest in working together (actually before TapLadder/ZenTapper) ... but so far nothing ever came of it to be working directly and ongoing with each other.

... next generation TapLadder ...I like that.

[loneguitarist]

I can vouch for Traktors comments on costing up milled high quality metals, it gets very pricy very fast if you want it to high standards and low error tolerance.

Although what I will say is your claim of the cheapest touch style instruments only lasts for the first ten customers, since the new Tenayo Ziggy designed by Siggi Abramzik and distributed by Ron Baggerman and Music Marketing is also priced at $1000 (€800), and not just for the first lucky few. I played one at E-Tap in Belgium and it was great!

Back to the ZenTapper, or Tapladder 2.0 as it were, I'm glad someone else is picking up on RJs excellent idea, although considering it is 5 times the price of the original Tapladder, I certainly hope it is 5 times as good.

[traktor]

Wow, Loneguitarist, that's good news!

Anything that brings tapping instruments to more people is a good thing.

Is the ZenTapper five times as good as the original TapLadder? Gee, maybe not. It's better, I think you'll agree, in many functional ways. But five times? Dunno. The TapLadder was an awfully good instrument -- especially for the next to nothing price!

But then it's quite possible that RJ may have found it non-sustainable as an ongoing project to provide them at that beta-test price. Perhaps that experiment and the beta-test price is not a realistic yardstick for a viable, ongoing operation. Ya think?

Jay?

[loneguitarist]

Yeah I was pleased by the announcement of a relatively cheap tapper.

I was also given the chance to play an original tap ladder while in Belgium, and I thought it was great. I'd love to play a zentapper and compare.

P.s. I think you should give R Jay a free zentapper for all the time and effort he put in developing the product that would go on to become the zentapper itself :) then he can make us a video review comparing his tap ladder to the zentapper!

I hope there are more and more touch style instruments coming onto the market!

[rjgoos]

AN OFFICIAL ANNOUNCEMENT FROM TAPLADDER INTERNATIONAL..

There is no conflict here, guys. Everybody calm down.


Here is the story:

When I first developed the Tapladder, I applied for a patent. During the patent examination process, I sent Traktor a prototype (Prototype #5 on this web page):

http://rjaysplace.com/tapladder/history/tapladder-history.html

and we had a few general discussions about doing something together, but nothing came of it. Months later, after it became apparent to me that a patent wasn't going to happen, and after I built 5 "beta units" for different people, I decided that entering the tap instrument business was not for me (there were other reasons, too). So, about 18 months ago, I dumped everything online for anyone to use. For the purpose of this discussion, the relevant statement from the aforementioned web page is quoted:

"Disclaimer One. A brief intellectual property statement. I tried to obtain a U.S. utility patent on certain aspects of the Tapladder. *I was not successful. I suppose I could have gotten a design patent, but I decided not to. Every design of mine on this page can thus be considered to be in the public domain. Please feel free to do what you will with them, subject to the terms of the second disclaimer. However, the word "Tapladder" is my trademark, registered in the State of North Dakota, and registrations pending elsewhere. Copy, adapt, do what you want with these designs. I hope you make a million dollars. Just, please, don't call your instrument a "Tapladder." Thanks."

So, in developing the ZenTapper, Traktor was just taking me at my word to "Copy, adapt, do what you want with these designs"…, so there is no conflict here, and if he makes a million dollars, there are no hard feelings with me (as long as he names his next child after me).

Perhaps the relevant analogy would be the relationship between Professor Starrett and the good people at Marcodi. John designed the Starrboard, sold a few units, and moved on to other things. After his designs went into the public domain, the Marcodi folks took his ideas, added some of their own, and made a new product. John even helped them out. The Harpejji is not a Starrboard, but they freely acknowledge John's influence and help (http://marcodi.com/letter.html).

I have not seen or played a ZenTapper, so I cannot say a lot about it. From the pictures that are available online, I would point out two differences between a ZenTapper a Tapladder. The Tapladder has an open back which allows one to see the fingertips while tapping, which allows one to hold the instrument away from the body if desired, instead of back against the chest which causes the neck strain some tappers suffer. The other difference is the "gap." The gap is the space between the outer edges of the instrument and the outer-most string, which is about an inch. This was quite intentional in the design of the Tapladder. The gap and the thickness of the side supports allows for the hand to be more "open" when tapping a Tapladder than most uncrossed instruments. It is quite possible that the ZenTapper plays great without the gap, and plays great without the back-less feature. I'm just pointing out some possible differences, not criticizing.


The gap:
http://rjaysplace.com/tapladder/history/P-4-iconic-400.jpg


Responding to a couple points made:


Glenn: "So RJG, is ZenTapper a joint venture between the two of you"
My response: The announcement of the ZenTapper today took me by surprise. I had no idea that Traktor was developing an instrument incorporating aspects of the Tapladder. If he told me, it was a long time ago and I forgot, which is possible, too.


To Daniel/Zen Archer: Is Traktor gouging people with his price? I would have to see one of the instruments before making that pronouncement. I used off-the-hardware-store-shelf angle aluminum, but it looks like Traktor has had something custom-made for the main structure as it (apparently) has a curved back to the neck, so this would add to the cost. I can't tell how the headstock and pickup unit fits with the main part of the body, but that might have required some milling, too. The ZenTapper has shielded pickups, etc., a "small" detail I left out, and it has 12 strings, I only produced 8 and 10 string Tapladders.

Traktor: "Until such a day, it will have to suffice that it be the least-expensive and best-sounding tapping instrument you've ever seen or played."
My reply: I think the K-meister might take exception to that statement.

Loneguitarist: "P.s. I think you should give R Jay a free zentapper for all the time and effort he put in developing the product that would go on to become the zentapper itself then he can make us a video review comparing his tap ladder to the zentapper!"
My response: Traktor doesn't owe me anything, but if a ZT appeared up on my doorstep, I would certainly would not send it back.

[traktor]

Thank you Jay Goos and TapLadder International.

(And for you folks suggesting a free instrument for Jay, maybe I'm ahead of you, maybe. For in a recent email in a postscript, I did tell him to watch his ups delivery guy in upcoming weeks. What's coming, I ain't sayin'. But I'm just sayin'.)


-- TT and the "un-TapLadder(tm)" folks


PS: Will be a little out of touch for a few days. Tonight I'm packing some clothes and my duffel bag goes into the car, because early tomorrow I'm driving and flying to a hotel in Las Vegas for some training, becoming certified as a hypnotherapist. (I have a small counseling practice in this area, just a start-up really.) I'll be back in my tappy office next week.

I'm interested in all the ideas that come up here. They're good ones. And I appreciate you folks and your loyalty to Jay. That's good of you, even if there might have been an erroneous conclusion or two in there!

I'll catch up with emails and postings next week. In the meantime, please let me have your suggestions for how to improve the ZenTapper website (http://zentapper.com/features/).

For certain we need recordings of the sound, and maybe you folks deciding to pre-order now will have ZenTappers in your hands to create some great recordings and videos. For now, suffice it to say that the sound is, by its nature, somewhat similar to TapLadder recordings, such as --
(sweet) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYobf8g8PQ8 (Jay)
(funky) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aX6hP6wzNs (Ernoir)

I have another interesting announcement, but I'll save it for when I return, after the dust settles down.

:)

[traktor]

Hi, folks,

I'm in Las Vegas, starting my seminar -- learning to be more proficient at counseling -- but I was able to log into the megatar office computer from here and answer some ZenTapper emails today.

But now that computer is acting surly ... could the Megatar computer be jealous of the attention that the ZenTapper's been getting?

So I answered several emails but may not be able to answer others till I get back next week. We'll see if the Megatar office computer is still stand-offish tomorrow. Hmmm ...

So far, some folks seem to think it's a marvelous value at $1000 or $1200 -- thanks for your kind words! -- although one fellow wants to buy one for $299. Now there's an idea! (That's the wonderful thing about us humans ... all the different viewpoints that we have!)

Thanks for all the response. Will respond as soon as I can!

-- Traktor

[lactose]

Thanks for posting that RJ. I often ponder if I would ever want to go into business. But I have worked at places that manufactured things and there is a world of difference between making something that works, and making something over and over with repeatable quality, and durability to last ten or twenty years. It requires test infrastructure and time which isn't cheap.

I don't see how any low volume business could charge under $1k for instruments. Well I suppose Krappy is doing it. By the time you pay for rent, machinery, taxes, and fake health insurance, it can really add up.

So at the moment, I make 2-3 instruments per year, give some away and keep the rest. If I win a large fortune in the lotto however, I have a plan to open up a guitar making business and turn it into a small fortune.

I don't know much about hypnosis but find it interesting. I can kind of tell Traktor has had some training. He does a good job of letting the insults fly by and not giving them any energy.

[seattlejohn]

I have been following this thread with a great deal of interest. I think both the Tapladder and ZenTapper are fantastic ideas. Having been on the planet for more than few years, something was triggered in my subconscious and eventually bubbled to the surface. In the sixties (remember the sixties?) I was fascinated by an article I read in some music magazine about a guitar which was made out of metal and looked a little like a Christmas tree. I never got to play one or see one but I was always fascinated by it. I finally remembered that it was made by a guy named Gittler. you can see the Wikipedia info on it here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gittler_guitar

Thought some of you might find this of interest.

Carry on....:)

John

[Jim_D]

It may be just me, but the ZenTapper appears to have uncrossed bass-bottom tuning (is that the correct name)? Could it have any tapping tuning? I would have thought it would have the standard Megatar bass bottom tuning.

I think it's an interesting instrument and I wish I could try it and compare to my normal Megatar. Plus, right, it only has 18 "frets"? That's quite a few less than ye olde Meg?

[Paul Edwards]

Hey, I say welcome ZenTapper and kudos to RJ and Traktor for bringing a new wrinkle into the TouchStyle world! You know all this stuff takes a lot of work and money, it's so easy to take pot shots! I say "thank you" for bringing new instruments into the world.

A long time tap/touch lover...

Paul Edwards

[rjgoos]

It may be just me, but the ZenTapper appears to have uncrossed bass-bottom tuning (is that the correct name)?



I designed the TL to be played "uncrossed", as it is easier on the wrists. I assume that is the thought behind the ZT, too.


Thanks for the kind words, Paul.

[loneguitarist]

It may be just me, but the ZenTapper appears to have uncrossed bass-bottom tuning ...

If it's like the tapladder, in that the strings are slightly sunk down below the level of the aluminium neck extrusions, I would think playing it in a crossed tuning would be very uncomfortable for the hands.

[seattlejohn]

If it's like the tapladder, in that the strings are slightly sunk down below the level of the aluminium neck extrusions, I would think playing it in a crossed tuning would be very uncomfortable for the hands.

I think it would be very helpful for Traktor to post the "default tuning" for the ZenTapper. If it is "uncrossed" fourths, would it be more difficult to learn the "crossed" tuning in fourths of the Megatar?

[traktor]

I think it would be very helpful for Traktor to post the "default tuning" for the ZenTapper. ...

Good idea.

DONE. See http://zentapper.com/features/tunings/

Also added a photo of some dude rocking out on the ZenTapper (http://zentapper.com/how-to-play/) ...

-- TT

[GaryOpenhill]

i seriously thought it was a really clever joke for a while. Now im just mad.

i'm building a tapladder as we speak, a little different than r j goos version but based on his design. I think its the cooles thing since bread. Not even sliced bread, just bread. The zentapper is cool enough because it is based on the tapladder design, except without the see-trough fretboard (which happens to the coolest thing about the tapladder).

Its like when they wanted to mass produce allan gittlers guitar, the awsomest guitar ever thought up, and they put a fret board under the frets! they missed the point, and that guitar went out of history pretty fast!

NO, of youre gonna make money on the tapladder, then at least do it right. It almost seem slike youre only out to make as much profit as possible?

But whatever, the point is....the "zentapper" is so not worth 1200 dollars. Whatever you say traktor. Let the sarcasms roll and the "gee " whatevers...., i dont care, and even hypnotize me all you want, but it just isnt nearly worth that.

IMO, if you buy this, you basicly pay $1000 to have traktors machine drill some holes for you or however he does it. i dunno.
Honestly, we should expect a little more than a metal profile from the home depot shelf for that price. Come on.
If Dave Bunker can build you a quality el guitar for 599 and a bass for 799 im sure traktor could assemble these parts for at least a little less. You dont even have to form a wood body and dont even use a singel trussrods in it!

Sorry, but i find the price to be truly offensive to all ours intelligence and specially to rj's praiseworthy project, which was all about homebrewing a low low budget good sounding, playable and easy buildable tapper. Its also offensive to all the tappers kevin seibold makes, even my double scale length, double trussrod, 14 string with emg's and custommade bridge for about $800 or whatever if was. Actually most of his tappers cost 600 back then, as i recall, but he had to riase the price on mine because of its weirdness.
The German Ziggy costs 799 Euro brand new, which is about $1000, and you honestly think you will convince us you need to add 200 to that for this?

This was funny too:

Traktor: "And before you go off, please know that I communicated with RJ before this project, and obtained his blessing. "

RJ: "The announcement of the ZenTapper today took me by surprise. I had no idea that Traktor was developing an instrument incorporating aspects of the Tapladder."

So, am i really the only one that is a little shocked by this? well, your all hypnotized then :P

[traktor]

Hi,


I'm sorry you feel that way about the ZenTapper.

Perhaps you will feel differently some day, if you ever see one.

I'm glad to hear you're building a TapLadder.

Best wishes.


-- Traktor

[traktor]

Don't I just get my lumps?

Recently, I've posted the ZenTapper announcement here, and on stickwire, and on the stickist forum. And it pulls some heat, as expected.

But as I remember back, I recall it was just the same way when I first announced the Megatar. And once upon a time, it was the same for Emmett. ("God! What *is* that thing?")

Now of course, even today we can go around and find people who descry any instrument. Some mock the Stick, some the Warr, some the Megatar.

And now the ZenTapper. But of course. That's how it works. For any new idea -- like the world being round -- at first people angrily denounce, and then later laugh at, and then there comes a time that everybody thinks the new thing is self-evident and obvious.

NOT THAT LONG AGO
================
Only 500 years ago, some folks thought the Earth was flat. Only 100 years ago, some folks said, "If God had meant man to fly, He'd have given us wings."

Well, God *has* given us wings -- we call them 747's -- and we can fly all the way from New York to Tokyo or Beijing.

MUSIC AROUND THE WORLD
=====================
And all around the world, musicians are making music with Sticks, and Warrs, and Megatars. And down the road a bit -- look into the future, you can see it -- with ZenTappers.

We've seen it all before. We'll see it again. And I embrace everybody in this touchstyle universe, supporters and detractors alike, because every single person is doing the very best they can with the knowledge and skills they possess. (If they knew even more, they'd do even better, but none of us can do any better than we can. If we could, we would, right?)

ABOUT THAT HARDWARE STORE
========================
With that in mind, here's what a guy named heartstrings said on the stickist forum. He's joshing me, but doesn't he just touch on truth, in a way? ...


... I'd sooner jump into a pool of piranhas ...

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Wow! That's a lot what it feels like!


... It's The Home Depot Tapper! ...

:D
About Home Depot ... I understand that part of Jay's criteria when designing his original TapLadder was that all the structural parts were available at the hardware store. He probably wandered the aisles for hours and hours, working it out.

So I tried that first. The sensible thing to do, right? I spent time looking in the hardware store (and online) to see if something already existing could be adapted. But I failed to find anything remotely close to useful. (If anybody does, please post it on the TapLadder thread at Tappistry.Org forum (http://www.tappistry.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1343), or send details to me or to Jay, as it would make homebrew construction more accurate and easier.)

And therefore, for the ZenTapper design, I found no quick and easy part from the hardware store, and it required me to make a CAD drawing and hire a manufacturing firm to make a custom metal extrusion for a fair amount of moolah. (Moo-lah, a medium of exchange, often time for materials or labor.)


Zo, let me zum up ...

TapLadder ... home depot parts ... yes! (So for a few hundred in parts and your building-it time, you gotta good-sounding tapper!)

ZenTapper ... home depot parts ... nope. (So for $995 your new tapper is delivered to your door!)


-- Traktor


And to make clearer the evolution from the brilliant TapLadder concept to a replicable, manufacturable instrument, here's a comparison of both instruments with Uncrossed BassBottom tuning ...

*** TAPLADDER from hardware parts, with 10 strings, bare electronics, wooden-dowel bridge, woven string-mute, cool see-through-design:

http://zentapper.com/misc/TapLadder-Proto5forTraktor-wLabels-320.jpg

*** ZENTAPPER from custom parts, with 12 strings, shielded electronics, adjustable bridge, integral string-mute, and dual support systems (but no longer see-through):

http://zentapper.com/misc/ZT-PatrickSmile-pic09-LessLabels-verC-320.jpg

SEEMS TO ME
==========
It plays nice, looks a bit more refined, sounds great, and has quite a few unique features (http://zentapper.com/features/). (Plus saving all that parts and build-time!) If you wish, simply think of it as a low-cost alternative. After a bit of reflection, seems like a good idea.
:)

Each to his own, of course, but it looks kind of cool, plays great, and I'm quite proud of what it delivers.
:)

[GaryOpenhill]

I knew there would be a longer reply! I used to be on this forum before....enough said, lol.


Now of course, even today we can go around and find people who descry any instrument. Some mock the Stick, some the Warr, some the Megatar.
And now the ZenTapper.


Actually, thats not what ive seen happening.... for what ive seen ppl are extremly welcoming to this! That is one reason why i was shocked. I havent seen anyone discrediting the tapladder at all, neither your version of it. Its the PRICE that I, one singel person, react to. Maybe theres going on something in stickist forum, who cares. THey TRULY talked down on the instruments i once owned, and thats why i stopped angeing in that forum. But this isnt about the instrument.




But of course. That's how it works. For any new idea -- like the world being round -- at first people angrily denounce, and then later laugh at, and then there comes a time that everybody thinks the new thing is self-evident and obvious.


Well, again, this new idea of the tapladder has received a lot of praise right from the start....its the price on your version of it that i think is worthy of criticsism since it degrades everything the tapladder stands for.


I spent time looking in the hardware store (and online) to see if something already existing could be adapted. But I failed to find anything remotely close to useful.

well, your local Home Depot must truly suck! Come on, are we expect to believe that the reason the zen is just a little cheaper than the megatar half a year ago, is because you dont do woodwork, fretwork and trussrods on it? basicly, this metal profile must be more expencive than wood bodies then!

If you wish, simply think of it as a low-cost alternative.

a low cost alternative to what??

Not to the tapladder, thats for sure!

Not to the megatar either! It was sold for approximatly the same price for about half a year ago, lol!

Certainly not to the lower priced new high quality Ziggy tappers, NOR to all the wooonderful custom design tappers the krapmeister has made for way under that price. And they have double trussrods, they have wooden bodies, thay have quality pickups!


Well thats it for me. I had my rage outlet. i totally lost my spark to finish my tapladder project, lol, even if i had a genius solution for the fretwork. Hope it will spark again. I'm sure it will, i just need to get my zen going.

[Mad Monk]

Has any competent tapper actually spent some time evaluating this product...?
Video, please.

Mad Monk.

[traktor]

Gary,

You seem to have some strong beliefs about costs and pricing and how to operate in the tapping-guitar-manufacturing industry. My experience so far doesn't support the views that you express, but perhaps that's just my personal shortcomings.

Of course, naturally I'm sorry that you feel the ZenTapper is not as well made as some other instruments. But perhaps when you actually see a ZenTapper you will feel differently.

If you missed the detail photos/descriptions of the $995 ZenTapper's design enhancements that extend the TapLadder concept, that page is here --
http://zentapper.com/features/

My best wishes for your building and tapping. My wish for you is that you will be happy, have peace, be free.

Thanks for taking time to share your views. I'm sure there are some good ideas in them.

-- Traktor

[rjgoos]

Well, again, this new idea of the tapladder has received a lot of praise right from the start....its the price on your version of it that i think is worthy of criticsism since it degrades everything the tapladder stands for......

Well thats it for me. I had my rage outlet. i totally lost my spark to finish my tapladder project, lol, even if i had a genius solution for the fretwork. Hope it will spark again. I'm sure it will, i just need to get my zen going.



Geir, I don't think that the ZT is the only overpriced tapping instrument on the market. That is why all of my instruments were either bought used or home-made.

But please consider continuing your project. I want to see your fretwork idea!!!

[Zen Archer]

I would like to see wood strips covering the sides of the instrument and a Plexiglas headstock, and get rid of the space between the two sets of strings to narrow this behemoth down a bit. I would also like to see the fretboard area open like the original tapladder and more frets FFS! and yes I also want fries with that order. Then my check for $995 will be in the mail.

[lbdhoyte]

It seems like this is like the discussion of the price difference between shopping at 7-11 and Costco. You pay for the service rendered. 7-11 is expensive because you are paying for the convenience of having the store right there at the corner. To get the price at Costco, you give up convenience of small amounts and the store being right on the corner.

Neither store is better than the other. It is just a matter of how are you willing and able to pay.

<sniff>I hate to say it, at the moment, I can't even afford a Krappy. </sniff>
Since I had more time than money, I paid with my time and built a 12 string version of the Tapladder (tm). In other words, I could not afford the convenience of a ZenTapper, so I rolled my own.

Dan

(btw, when I have a bit of time I will set up my drill press and take some pics to show how I got very accurate fret heights.)

[traktor]

I would like to see wood strips covering the sides of the instrument and a Plexiglas headstock, and get rid of the space between the two sets of strings to narrow this behemoth down a bit. I would also like to see the fretboard area open like the original tapladder and more frets FFS! and yes I also want fries with that order. Then my check for $995 will be in the mail.
No soup for you?

[Obligatory Seinfeld reference]


Not at all, you can have soup ... for I have great news for you!

After your ZenTapper has arrived and is now plugged into your amp(s) -- whenever you wish to take a break from having so much fun creating lovely music on your unique and fun $995 tapping instrument -- then all you have to do is this ..

Just stick some wood on the sides and make a plexiglass headstock and stick it in, and take out some of the space between the strings to narrow it down, then cut away the body behind the frets and stick in some more frets, and then cook some fries. (It's all so super-easy.) Presto! You paid only $995, and you got exactly what you want!

I don't know what could be fairer than that ...

When may I expect your check? (But bear in mind that money orders, credit-cards, and paypal clear faster and you'll have your new ZenTapper singing beneath your touch even quicker!)

:)

-- TT

[arsacane]

Is there any sound clip / video of the instrument? So far the only thing I've seen is a bunch of low res pictures... Maybe I'm wrong and the zentapper is worth its price.
Traktor I know that you don't consider yourself a top player, but a little sample might be useful.

Cheers, Daniel.

[K Rex]

RJ,

Who is the K-meister?

K

[K Rex]

Hey Dan, I'd really appreciate those fret height pics...

K

[rjgoos]

RJ,

Who is the K-meister?

K


Kevin Siebold, the guy who will sell you a 12-string tapper for $800, complete with X-ray vision:


http://www.krappyguitars.com/own8.jpg

[traktor]

Is there any sound clip / video of the instrument? ... Maybe I'm wrong and the zentapper is worth its price.
Traktor I know that you don't consider yourself a top player, but a little sample might be useful.
Hi,

Will do, of course, but other things fill the schedule (production, parts, and my trip to assist at the next tantra yoga workshop filling up next week).

However, though the ZenTapper has a different look that Jay's original TapLadder, because we're using similar materials (and Jay was using my dual-rail pickups), the sound is remarkably similar.

So my apology for the delay in getting recordings, and videos -- please be patient with me; it took Jay a while to get his, too -- but in the meantime, here's Jay playing his TapLadder. The ZenTapper will feel smoother, and look more polished, and you don't have to build it ... but the sound is remarkably the same.

You see, this incredible sound -- which is largely created by the materials and the architecture -- was what I was after. Give a listen ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYobf8g8PQ8

And, yes, you'd like to hear it on a ZenTapper. I know, and will handle when I can because it would be a good thing, and it's also the right thing to do. Now if I can just get through this darned tantra yoga seminar ...

-- Traktor

PS: If you have an interest in sexual/spiritual ecstasy, here's my report on this same seminar when I attended it not long ago ('Enter Tantra Yoga' on Adventures of Bloggard (http://www.bloggard.com/blog//item/649)) and here's the info about the seminar from the company that provides these seminars -- SourceTantra Beginners Weekend Seminar (http://www.sourcetantra.com/beg_sem.html) (just click the 'more info' button for the seminar upcoming nearest your location)

I don't want to be an annoying 'born again' tantra-dude, but it's majorly wonderful, and completely outside the experience of most of us. Truly.

[rjgoos]

However, though the ZenTapper has a different look that Jay's original TapLadder, because we're using similar materials (and Jay was using my dual-rail pickups), the sound is remarkably similar.



Not to split hairs, but there were different kinds of pickups used on the various Tapladder prototypes:


1. Prototype 2 used a single Carvin H50S bass guitar pickup. Sound clip:

http://rjaysplace.com/tapladder/history/P2-sampler.mp3


2. Prototypes 4 and 5 used the dual-rail pickups sold to me by Traktor (and apparently similar to those available on the ZT).

Prototype 4: http://rjaysplace.com/tapladder/history/vision-sleeves.mp3

Prototype 5: http://rjaysplace.com/tapladder/history/ant-farm.mp3



3. Prototypes 3 and 6 used DiMarzio Split-P dual-rail bass pickups.

Prototype 3: http://rjaysplace.com/tapladder/history/Prototype-3-clips.mp3

Prototype 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYobf8g8PQ8

Prototype 6: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWPYJ5yO-3Q


Just a clarification.

[traktor]

Whoah!

Oops, my mistake.

I knew Jay had used pickups that I sent on TapLadders -- and my own TapLadder has our pickups on them -- so didn't realize he used different ones on this video.

And then, since (in my own listening in our shop) my ear revealed that the ZenTapper sounds very similar to the TapLadder -- which was exactly what we wanted, and expected -- I assumed he was using our pickups on the video I inserted here.

My apology. The pickups on Jay's video are *different* than on the ZenTapper, not the same as I'd stated.

But ... since it's incorrect, then ... I guess in the meantime, enjoy the sound of Jay on the lovely TapLadder, and we'll just have to wait until we have our own demos, so you can hear the ZenTapper.

And I'll git to it, first chanct I git!

:)

[K Rex]

Trak, Dude,

You have painted such a different portrait of freakiness for me... I so want a part of that seminar...

Dude,

Dude,

Dude,

I want to live in Mt. Shasta. I'll do anything.

K

[traktor]

Trak, Dude,

You have painted such a different portrait of freakiness for me... I so want a part of that seminar...

Dude,

Dude,

Dude,

I want to live in Mt. Shasta. I'll do anything.

K
The next seminar is this weekend, starts Friday, near Santa Cruz. You can fly into San Jose. I'll send someone to pick you up, or I'll come get you myself. You'll need a room three nights. I have a couple suggestions. There's room still.

If you miss this one, there's another one in Ashland, Oregon in about a month. I'll be assisting at that one, too.

It's definitely 'other'. Not your usual seminar.

If you need more info, call me.

-- TT

[jamsire]

Hello everyone.

I left this forum because of personal reasons. I haven't tapped on anything in a very long time because of my personal disgust on private matters dealing with pushy marketing. Again, that's just me - and that's it.

When I received an email notifying me of this ZenTapper - I almost threw all of my Megatars out the window - I was annoyed at what I saw and the price (which is ridiculous - I don't care who says what).

Being the proud owner of the first (and only) round of TapLadders, I remain true to the notion that there is NOTHING LIKE THE ORIGINAL. NOTHING. RJ - is an awesome guy that I have learned a lot from. He is a gentleman, a scholar, and a cultural music historian. Of course, because of his gracious and kind personality, he will honestly defend the ZenTapper and give it his blessings without hesitation. That doesn't mean "I" have to like what is going on here.

Check out >>MY<< youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aX6hP6wzNs)of me playing the TapLadder - that's the real deal. Original, unique, and inspirational. No enhancements needed and no need for a ridiculous price.

I hate this and this is why I haven't been on here. Ridiculous prices are just that - ridiculous. I was recently working with some guys in Buffalo, NY on their guitars and they too were in denial about what their guitars should cost - so I left them. Months later, they came back and wanted help renegotiating a better price point for their instruments. Why? Because the guitars went NOWHERE for over 2 1/2 years and they were collecting dust in the basement.

I'll state MY OPINION again - I hate this ZenTapper and I think it's ridiculous. There is no comparison with the TapLadder because the TapLadder is an American Original.

Done.

[rjgoos]

There is no comparison with the TapLadder because the TapLadder is an American Original.





Ernie, your friendship and loyalty are appreciated, but I think that we should wait until some recordings/videos/customer reviews come out before passing judgment on the ZT, like any other instrument. That's my take on it.

[jamsire]

I'll just not comment on this anymore, because I consider RJ to be my friend.

[K Rex]

Hello again, Ernie!

In theory, I agree with you. And, of course, RJ is indeed a shining example of positivity and thoughtfulness. However, Traktor is just doing what Traktor does best; he is a businessman through and through. And his decision to sell the ZT for over a grand has left RJ's Tapladder intact as a viable and affordable alternative to pricey instruments.

So, in essence, nothing has tarnished or altered RJ's brilliant creation in any way. It resembles the tapladder in some ways, just as some tap instruments resemble sticks in some ways.

Now, if Traktor manages to patent the idea of assembling a tap guitar from inexpensive parts purchased at the hardware store, I'd be pretty upset. That doesn't seem to be Traktor's MO, so I look at the ZT as just another tapper on the market... one that APPEARS as if it is made from inexpensive parts purchased at the hardware store, but in fact costs $1200.

That's MY opinion.

Now, if we could just get Rob back here on the forum...

Kev

[traktor]

... In theory, I agree with you ... Actually, I agree with Ernie about the brilliance of the Tap-Ladder. In fact, I think it's such a brilliant idea that the idea of this superb concept languishing seemed a pity. But realize there are actually *three* brilliant ideas, though this discussion has tended to moosh them all together.

BRILLIANT HOME-BREW PROJECT
First is that the TapLadder is a brilliant home-brew project. Always was. Still is. Nothing has changed. On the ZenTapper site, there's even a link to Jay's History of the TapLadder page showing the project. (And I'd point out that for damn sure no other manufacturer ever mentions any other instrument on their websites, nor hosts a forum with freedom of speech like this one.) Why do I do this? Because it's truth, and because it's the right thing to do. I don't have to worry about "losing a sale". There's no sense dwelling in a fear-of-loss based reality, and it just creates itself if you do that.

But this is an expanding universe. There is plenty for all in this expanding tapping universe. It gives to me. It gives to you. And we give back. That's how it works.

UNIQUE LOVELY SOUND
Second -- and maybe some people miss this -- the TapLadder, by means of its materials and architecture, produces an extremely lovely sound. All previous 'metal' guitars I've heard were either heavy, or clumsy to the hands, or very very expensive. So they never got into the mainstream. And unfortunately that means that most of us have never heard the extremely beautiful sound of strings supported by long-sustaining, bright-sounding metal. It's majorly wowsville to my ears. It deserves to continue down time.

HIGHLY STABLE STRUCTURE
Third -- the TapLadder by means of its metal construction -- and made more stable by our 'uni-body' metal structure -- also eliminates some traditional guitar parts we thought were 'necessary' because we've always been working with wood. Wood is originally made of living cells, and just like your body and mine, these cells grow this way and that, break and repair themselves. But cast metal is a uniform medium. And it's strong.

So this means that an instrument of ZenTapper design -- if designed properly -- has no need for truss-rods, because there's no bending-of-wood to 'repair' with a tensioned truss-rod. This also means -- if designed properly -- no adjustments needed to playing action, ever!

The ZenTapper is the first (relatively) inexpensive instrument, to the best of my knowledge, to deliver advantages #2 and #3 to the touchstyle world, without the need to build it yourself.

And the TapLadder's advantage #1 -- ability to build-it-yourself if desired -- is still there, unimpaired. (Although the TapLadder concept has probably been *promoted* more by ZenTapper discussions in the last week than the TapLadder concept was promoted otherwise in the previous year or so.)

THROW A FIT?
Wanna throw a fit about how dreadful it all is? Go ahead. Be my guest. I'll listen patiently. It's interesting.

Think it's all wrong? That the world should *not* have this $995 tapping instrument? Then -- please -- do it yourself and do it better. Do it cheaper. Sell it for less; sell it for $637, $495, $299, or $14.95. Help us out here. Show us all how it *spozed* to be. When you do that, you'll be doing something really really good in the world. I will applaud. Others will too (at least after their initial shock and fierce criticism). :)

... if Traktor manages to patent the idea of assembling a tap guitar from inexpensive parts purchased at the hardware store, I'd be pretty upset ...
Please. Why would I? Not going to happen. We've got some patents in the works, but not for the idea of assembling a guitar from hardware-store parts. I *want* the world to assemble guitars from hardware-store parts, or from wood, or any way they can. It expands touchstyle, and that's my mission, to create more music in the world, and that's the guideline for pretty much all my actions in this particular universe. Consider my actions in this light. Consider this mission-statement. You'll see. (Most of you will, at least) :)

... I look at the ZT as just another tapper on the market... one that APPEARS as if it is made from inexpensive parts purchased at the hardware store ...
At your hardware store (if big) you may be able to find stainless steel rod stock, and you may be able to find metal to fabricate and drill out holes for steel rods. Jay apparently did. (My hardware store doesn't have them, and we buy them indirectly from a metals vendor.)

Now this is not really very weird. Just as a lumber yard has wood, so does a hardware store have hardware. Everybody, including instrument makers, maybe even Fender and Gibson, buys sandpaper and (small quantities) of non-custom screws and bolts at a hardware store or hardware vendor, right?

But if you can find these other, custom parts at the hardware store ... please, please, PLEASE show me the parts. It's easy to *say* 'hardware parts' but I couldn't find any extrusions that would do, and that's one of the key parts. Can you find them? Can anyone?

I offer $1000 to anyone who can show me these parts in any hardware store or available off-the-shelf anywhere.

(Now please don't go showing me pots and strings and strap buttons. You know what I mean. We're talking about the custom metal extrusion, and the structural inserts like headstock, pickups-support, and bridge-support. I'm assuming these are the parts that cause 'hardware store' squawking noises.)

... but in fact costs $1200.
Correction. The price is $995. See ZenTapper pricing here (http://zentapper.com/pricing/).

And, yes, it's my own fault. We had some production questions still a-testing when I first put the site up, and I had to hedge my bet, so I described the later price as $1195 and the now price as $995. But our production progress is encouraging, and I think we'll be able to hold the $995 pricing, so the $1195 was removed from the website.

But $1200 is no longer a valid number, maybe it's time to stop saying the price is $1200? Since the price is $995? Just a suggestion for anyone wishing to talk reality now. :)

I didn't mean to go blathering on so much. I intended this as a short note, to say:
* Jay's homebrew project was brilliant, and still is.
* Jay's design had two other brilliant concepts, deserving development.
* No intention here to patent a home-brew project.
* No hardware-store parts.
* The price is $995. Just $995. Not $1195. Not $1200. It's $995.

But I'll leave my long blathering. Maybe there's some helpy info here for folks as might wish to have a great-sounding, *more* affordable commercial tapping instrument with warranty, fast-delivery, ready-to-play, etc, etc, etc.

-- Dread Pirate Topaz? Or Benevolent Guru Trak? One wonders. Yes, one wonders.

:)

[rjgoos]

Over the weekend, a ZT video was apparently posted on You Tube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sf2tZUXhyjA

[traktor]

Oops, Jay!

That's part two.

Part one is here --

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaKDlvVIZcI


-- Traktor

PS: I broadcast this to my newsletter list -- always the news first to newsletter subscribers -- but my broadcast company seems to have crapped out, and hopefully I can figure out what went wrong later today.

[Jim_D]

I saw the videos last night and commented, so do check them out - in my opinion they are amongst the most informative videos online about tapping that I've seen!

[traktor]

Why, thank you!

What a kind thing to say!

-- Traktor

[Jim_D]

Well, it struck me just the other night that most of the videos on YouTube are of people playing nice songs really well. Often they are of people playing really complicated stuff in fact. There is nothing wrong with this of course, but I did think, wow, there isn't anything much out there showing the novice how to actually start tapping, and what sort of tapping you should keep doing in order to make the most of the instrument.

I had an interesting experience recently. My megatar sits on a stand in my living room. Normally people who visit ask the odd question about it but most people just go "oh" and then we talk about other things. But I was entertaining a guest the other evening and they were fascinated by it. They had never seen any sort of tapping instrument before, and had no idea the concept even existed.

I put on my Old Grey Whistle Test DVD and showed her King Crimson doing "Frame by Frame" and explained the differences between the stick and megatar, and instead of going "oh, that's all a bit '80's" like most people do she kept leaning over and trying to strum it. So after I showed her how I played it I said "you have a go". She put the megatar on and started trying to tap but it didn't seem easy for her. I realised how long I had been doing this (as I had been tapping on my guitars for years before I got a dedicated touchstyle instrument) and I found it really hard to explain how to do it and get a nice note out of it and what good combinations of notes to try.

Even so, she remained fascinated by it and after we watched "The Deception of The Thrush" on the King Crimson live DVD, where Trey Gunn plays his Warr horizontally on a guitar stand, she sat with it on her lap for the rest of the evening, trying to tap it. I have never entertained a guest so fascinated by the megatar before.

I suggested looking at some tapping stuff on YouTube but I think if you saw something like Jan Laurenz or Greg Howard, but you could not easily even get a tapped note sounding right, it would be much easier not to start at all! Of course, that is not me being rude in any way about those players or the videos they've chosen to show - they're both incredible and inspiring musicians. I just don't even know how to approach getting to where they are.

Anyway, I love playing my megatar, and I definately have my own "style", but it's not as disciplined as I'd like it to be, and not very flexible. I can't seem to change keys very easily for example. I've tried to follow the Easy Touchstyle Basics book, but I am not very good at learning anything from books, and I have a very poor understanding of music theory. But I do seem to get along well with videos and I was immediately inspired to follow the stuff Traktor was doing on the ZenTapper video.

So for me I think it would be amazing for people trying new instruments to see some video showing you some really basic tapping exercises. I have seen the Daniel Schell and Bob Culbertson stuff but much of that is too complicated for me.

[StickJan]

Oops, Jay!

That's part two.

Part one is here --

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uaKDlvVIZcI


-- Traktor.

A little tip, Traktor. Use your pinky on the bass side too so you don´t have to move your hand around so much on the fretboard. Too much energy needed and you will strain your muscles in a shorter time. That thing is tuned in 4th if I´m not all wrong so one finger per fret is better.

Sincerely//Jan

[glints-collide]

So for me I think it would be amazing for people trying new instruments to see some video showing you some really basic tapping exercises. I have seen the Daniel Schell and Bob Culbertson stuff but much of that is too complicated for me.

Here is a video introducing the TouchGuitarCircle, where you can see some of the really basic stuff. If you have questions regarding the exercises or you
want to have a detailed video of them, just go here and write them a email:

www.touchguitarcircle.com

Actually the basics are the most important stuff and very often overlooked.
Touch-Release-Move and the roll should be on every practiselist :)

[rjgoos]

Hey Traktor,

Have any Zentappers been shipped yet?

Just curious.

[traktor]

Just this last week, yes, now shipping ...

More news follows soon ...

-- Traktor

PS: We'll also be making ZenTappers available on EBay, and if you realize you want a ZenTapper, or you want to have the most freedom and options, then sign up for our EBay Instrument Notify-List, and you'll be notified first when new Megatars and ZenTappers -- ready-to-play and ready-to-ship -- appear on EBay. The signup form for this free service is here --

Megatarstore Instrument Notify-List (http://megatar.com/ebay-megatarstore/chapmanstick-bassbottom-tuned-megatars.htm)

[rjgoos]

Just this last week, yes, now shipping ...


And apparently one for sale on eBay.

I think the black paint should be standard:

http://megatar.com/ebay/inst/zt/ZT-BlkChr-Fullview-BIG.jpg

[traktor]

Hi, Jay,

I was quite startled when I saw the first black one. (The first ZenTapper sent out was a black one.) I hadn't realized it would look so sharp.

And, yes, two ZenTappers were put up on EBay, ready to play, and ready to ship. One is the fast-learning BassBottom, and the other is the popular Chapman-Stick style Inverted-Fifths tuning ...

EBay Megatar Store Instruments Ready for Shipping (http://megatar.com/ebay-megatarstore/chapmanstick-bassbottom-tuned-megatars.htm)

-- Traktor

PS: People on our "Early-Bird Notify-List" received advance notice of these new instruments becoming available on EBay a day or more earlier than folks here on this list ... because those folks requested to have advance notice.

And so if that fact makes you start thinking right now how cool it would be to have a Megatar or a ZenTapper, and you realize you like the idea of getting it right away because it's ready to ship right now, and you're the kind of person that likes to have the inside track ... then probably you figure it's smart to get on the free EBay Instrument Early-Bird Notify-List, so you'll be alerted first when Megatars and ZenTappers -- ready-to-play and ready-to-ship -- appear on EBay. The signup form for this service is here --

Megatarstore Early-Bird Notify-List (http://megatar.com/ebay-megatarstore/chapmanstick-bassbottom-tuned-megatars.htm)

[Jim_D]

Hi Glints-Collide

Thanks for that TGC link. There are some interesting things going on in the videos there - I tried to do the Daughter I and Daughter II exercises last night and found them very interesting. They were not something I would immediately do as I always start playing my weird songs when I pick up my Megatar, but I thought they were very good for testing and building one's agility.

The guys doing the videos look a bit serious at times though! Especially the way they seem to stare at each other (I know there is some laughter too though) ;)

Jim D

[dtapper]

I'm way interested in a Zen tapper I hope the special price last until tax return cou:Dmes!

[traktor]

I'm way interested in a Zen tapper I hope the special price last until tax return cou:Dmes!Well, then have you filed for your refund?

Because the sooner you file, the sooner you'll receive your refund, and that means the sooner you'll feel the ZenTapper nestling comfy in your hands and singing beneath your touch ...

[dtapper]

That's the great thing about you tractor always selling. Which leads me to a small soap box, shouldn't someone be pushing for more to tap or is it better to be a secret society? Who will be the judge?

[traktor]

I'd have to agree .. it doesn't serve us, or the world, that two-handed touchstyle be a secret society.

But patience. A guy named Adolph Saxe invented a new brass instrument some time back, when orchestras were popular and he was really laughed at, and his instrument was called a 'bastard' instrument. He grew old and eventually died, and never saw the saxaphone become the most popular monophonic instrument in the world.

It's not a fast process.

But it's happening.

-- TT

PS: Did you see Jay's videos? They're pretty cool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDmN79cABv0
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=128Uy5ng-pQ