Too many different models?

[Nico A.]

I guess many people believe that touchstyle playing will one day be a common playing style. Well, I also think that way. But I see a little problem here:

One tapping guy once compared the evolution of the touchstyle instruments with the evolution of an electric guitar. Though there were and are many models of electric guitars, I guess nearly all had the same string number and tuning. Considering tapping instruments, quite every one of these are different in string number and tuning. Yet these attributes are crucial for a beginner to learn the instrument, you couldn't easily switch over to another instrument when you learned a song on a special one. Thus, there couldn't be an instruction manual how to learn touchstyle instruments in general.

Do you think the diversity of all the tapping instruments causes their evolution and rising popularity to slow down?

[rjgoos]

Though there were and are many models of electric guitars, I guess nearly all had the same string number and tuning. Considering tapping instruments, quite every one of these are different in string number and tuning....Thus, there couldn't be an instruction manual how to learn touchstyle instruments in general.

Do you think the diversity of all the tapping instruments causes their evolution and rising popularity to slow down?


It's interesting to read the old Stickwire archives from ca. 1995 or so (they are still available on the internet if you know where to look). Except for a couple people playing something called "half baritone" tuning, everyone had the same tuning, everybody had the same number of strings, etc. There was a lot of exchange of information on tabs, etc., because everyone there was doing the same thing. Of course, all of that is out the window now. There are many tunings, and, as you point out, it greatly limits the usefulness of educational materials. Daniel Schell's C-dot system comes the closest to being an instructional method that is less tied to a specific tuning.

[Nico A.]

Now I wonder how the guitar standard tuning came along and established... when in the touchstyle world can't be any agreement on such a thing, obviously.

Maybe now I have to read further into the guitar history.

[lactose]

I agree, the diversity of instruments has somewhat of a dampening effect on the general adoption of tapping instruments. But I felt like, hey, since I am kinda starting over anyway, why not experiment with different tunings and numbers of strings.

For Christmas I got the book Hand Made Hand Played that contains lots of photos and information about many of the most beautiful and wildest looking guitars I have ever seen. After reading that book, I am definitely less interested in the same old instrument designs. I would like to see other Megatar offerings. But I understand from a business perspective why that may not be a good idea.

[traktor]

We are currently in a period of rapid evolution, of rapid mutation.

For guitar and other medieval stringed instruments, their period was a long time ago, and the best-surviving mutation that created the most offspring was the guitar tuning we now use with a different interval on the B-string, and fret-dots on guitar finally settled on their present location.

During periods of rapid mutation, there is chaos (opposing forces of entropic breakdown versus the organizing tendency of human perception). Things are unclear. Struggles ensue.

In the end, one particular mutation provides better survival for the creatures that possess it, and things settle down, and that mutation becomes the norm.

Exciting times, what?

.

[arsacane]

Now I wonder how the guitar standard tuning came along and established... when in the touchstyle world can't be any agreement on such a thing, obviously.

Maybe now I have to read further into the guitar history.

Well let's not forget that in the last 40 years many guitar players created and used a lot of alternative tunings... Many of these players were / are among the most creative / influential in the guitar community...
The problem with different tunings / string # is mainly repertoire and having a proper 'method' with progressive pieces (like the Sor method and others) with annotated fingerings and exercises that help with the specific difficulties of each piece.
But regardless of the tuning we all face the same challenges: independence, interdependence, rhythm, music theory etc.
I've seen talented tappers pick up an instrument with a different tuning and in a few minutes play something musical. Ron Baggerman is a very good example...

Cheers, Daniel

[rjgoos]

During periods of rapid mutation, there is chaos (opposing forces of entropic breakdown versus the organizing tendency of human perception).

.


I'm going to have to get the banjo out of the closet, and compose the Entropic Breakdown....

[Noobie]

The six-string guitar with the modern tuning didn't really exist until just a bit more than 200 years ago. It took a while before they started to gain in popularity. It was an interlinked evolution of string technology and musical style which led to the addition of the sixth course/string and metal frets.

I imagine one of the great reasons acoustic guitar retained the six strings is the use of just one hand's fingers for fretting, as well as the limits of wire-wound strings for lower pitches. For a long time, the only practical way to tune lower was longer strings, and there was also an upper limit on how high a plain string could be tuned.

Even there, though, it's not like standard tuning was the thing which pushed the guitar forward. There are a number of tunings used for different styles; blues, slide and slack-key guitar don't necessarily use standard. It isn't the use of or non-use of standard which makes such music listenable to audiences, it's the musicality. Those guys using open G and a slide didn't have the advantage of written learning materials, and it didn't hurt them.

----

Electromagnetic pickups helped change the tuning game a bit, but it's taken a while, and there are still limits. Seven-string guitar has been a backwater during its existence in spite of the pioneering of Van Eps, and the Russian acoustic seven-string is used only for its traditional music, for the most part.

Now eight-string guitars are growing in popularity, but that doesn't really mean much. If you asked 1000 average Americans about the band Meshuggah, I doubt more than 1 or two would know of them. Even less would knowingly recognise anything about dedicated touchstyle instruments, although I bet Stanley Jordan would be recognised more than all the members of King Crimson collected (and I still think Meshuggah might be more recognised than KC at that).

----

I think the reason dedicated tapping instruments are obscure is because there are proportionally very few such instruments in the world compared to guitar. Further, a lot of music played on dedicated tapping instruments doesn't fit what most people are looking for in music.

When one asserts that tapping instruments are rising in popularity, I have my doubts. I don't think there is any problem with the number of strings or the type of tuning.

Stanley Jordan tunes in full fourths. Listeners couldn't care less. He got a contract based on his ability to play jazz standards tunefully. His tapping might have been a gimmick which set him apart, but without the chops, he wouldn't have gotten the gig. Nobody really taught him; he busked, and his woodshed was the street. Was he held back because he decided to work in a tuning for which there were no learning materials?

I'm sorry, but I think the reason dedicated tapping instrument are even more obscure than Meshuggah is that there hasn't been a recording that has grabbed people in the same way, or in the way of "Magic Touch."

----


Today's touchstyle player are a highly diverse group with many different musical aims, and they come to touchstyle from a variety of backgrounds. A parellel group of musicians are the seven-string and eight-string guitar players, and although some tunings are more used than others, there is no one standard.

I don't play a dedicated touchstyle instrument. I play an eight-string guitar tuned in low E (low to high EADGCFAD, like a four-string bass, combined with a six-string which has been tuned down a whole step). I play funk and R&B. Am I hurting touchstyle? *laugh* Given that R&B and funk are recognisable and get people up and dancing, it has proven appeal, regardless of the technique I use to get those sounds out there.

----

Personally, I feel the thing which really doesn't do much for touchstyle is the overuse of continuous interlocking patterns with no great chordal or melodic variation. I still work my way through classic books like "Melody in Songwriting" or "The Songwriting Sourcebook: How to Turn Chords into Great Songs." I feel that great music relies on musical surprise, the continous introduction of new and *pleasing* elements in order to retain listener interest. How many touchstyle compositions have you heard which use even half of the musical structures or variation used in successful or catchy songs like, say, "Summer Breeze" or "Diamond Girl" by Seals and Crofts, or "Bitch" by the Stones, or even the short but hummable theme to the "Mighty Morphin' Power Rangers"? *laugh*

Man, just thinking about great music with great chord progressions and interesting variations, I think I have to dig up "It'll Shine When It Shines," just to hear Larry Lee singing "Jackie Blue."

Every day in your indigo eyes, I watch the sun set but I don't see it rise....

[HylerTouchstyle]

Do you think the diversity of all the tapping instruments causes their evolution and rising popularity to slow down?

I don't believe that will be the case. Sadly I cannot see touchstyle instruments as ever being the electric guitar. Musicians who play touchstyle instruments are usually already musicians with profficiency on one or more instruments (most of which being guitar) who are looking to broaden there horizon, then they find these touchstyle instruments.

Many modern musicians become musicians because they want to learn to play an instrument like the guitar, then progress from there to an actual level of musicianship rather than just knowing how to play an instrument. I do not see the musical world ever progressing to the point of mainstream musicians who become musicians soley because of touchstyle instruments. The idea, concept, technique, and concentration is simply too much to handle for someone who has not played an instrument, especially achieved some level of profficiency on another string instrument.

It's a nice thought to have, and I would love to see touchstyle instruments in the mainstream someday, that's a big part of what influenced our instrument's prices, however I don't see this happening very soon, and I certainly don't see it ever achieving the idea that I mentioned in the above paragraph.

I feel the variety of scales/strings/tunings/etc. exists because this is such an essoteric instrument, and at the level of musicianship required to play these instruments well, the players have already adopted specific preferences in scales/strings/tunings/etc. which is why there is such a variety, to accomodate the many types of players. Bass players may want large scale lengths and less strings will Guitar players may want shorter scales and more strings. Cellists, Violists, Violinists, and Pentatarists may want to have their bass side or even whole instruments tuned in fifths. The list will go on, and I am sure there are many more preferences to add in, but because of this, I have a feeling the many types of different touchstyle instruments will remain.

[Cristian]

I agree with views about rabid evolution.

[rjgoos]

I agree with views about rabid evolution.


Intentional or not, that was a great pun, Cristian. The evolution is rapid, it's the occasional flame war that gets rabid. :)

[K Rex]

That does it, Goos.

Consider yourself flamed. :)

kev

[traktor]

I am Innocent! INNOCENT!

It was-

What?

Oh?

Uh, never mind.


.

[teknoman]

I am probably older than most of you .So i ,ll say this I have been into ambient ,free jazz ,prog rock, etc i,m a 59 yr old black guy,the reason i say this , is because my dad used to play coltrane around the house on his sax. It used to drive me crazy as a 12 yr old. My mom bought me hendrix, zappa , and the beach boys smiley smile.Did she know what she was buy ing me? hell no!. these were all pioneers and so are we

[Poncho]

Being a relative noob to the tapping game, I find this thread interesting. Are we in a period of rapid evolution? Tapping is still a bit of a mystery to people around here where I live (Brisbane,Australia), evidenced by the people who look at me as if I've just invented the mousetrap when I go out and play my tapper, and even resources on the net are scarce. Most of it is sticks vs warr guitars and all that nonsense. It's like trying to find out about clavinets on google and finding 100 harpsichord vs piano threads to sift through only to find that you don't really care at the end. I find that we're right at the forefront of evolution. But the evolution and popularity won't cone from any instrument but in the music made by it. So I say let's get out whatever tapper you fancy and play the darn thing. As soon as we start innovating our playing I think we'll still be considered 'niche'. Just my 2 cents.

[beeboo1]

One needs to find the right instrument to make the right voice. No flame onto you. It's all good.

[rjgoos]

We are currently in a period of rapid evolution, of rapid mutation.

.


Rapid bursts of evolution create an array of innovations. Some last, some become evolutionary dead ends and die out.

[lactose]

There is no argument, harpsichords are better than pianos. I knew a piano player once. He beat his wife.

[loneguitarist]

There is no argument, harpsichords are better than pianos. I knew a piano player once. He beat his wife.

Hmm.. I don't know about that, man. I heard that Chairman Mao played the harpsichord which makes that instrument instantly evil. Because, as we all know, we must all make huge fixed judgments based on instruments, rather than music ;)

Think paintings, not paintbrushes, people.

[Tom Drinkwater]

The tapping group is pretty 'normal' when compared to any other similar group whether it be car enthusiasts, guitar enthusiasts, tool enthusiasts etc, etc in that it is largely an enthusiast group with very few professionals in the mix. Most of these groups are built around some sort of conflict of opinion. Sounds just like politics doesn't it. We are drawn like moths to the idea that someone hear might share our opinion and what better opinon to share then 'we are right' and 'they are wrong'. There is also alot to be said for self expression through association. Think about classic examples of this in our culture here in the US.
Democrats vs. Republicans
North vs. South
Home Depot vs. Lowes
Ford vs. Chevy
Car vs. Truck
Macdonalds vs. Burger King
Acoustic vs. electric
tubes vs. solid state
analog vs. digital
rock vs. country

If two hand tapping does become more popular in the future it will most likely be because of kids making vids for YouTube. Nothing spits in the face of a multi thousand dollar dedicated tapping instrument like a grainy 2 minute video of a 12 year old tapping out a bach tune on a Hello Kitty strat.

If more people realized that you can tap on regular guitars then the technique will be more mainstream. But of course the technique is only half of the experience. Most of us really like the cool factor and the excitement that comes from having a really sweet tapper. Nothing wrong with that. The only major change in the scene that wouldn't surprise me is if Emmett and Traktor retire and no one follows in their foot steps. This economy isn't conducive to starting a business like that and with shipping costs as high as ever it can be hard to make a worth while profit for a small shop.

[lactose]

Interesting post. Got me to thinking. Life is like series of chapters, where in each new chapter, the way we think changes. According to the Spiral Dynamics theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spiral_Dynamics), the second stage is very tribe oriented.

I think the urge to wear a badge or label of some sort is strong at the second stage. Sometimes, when I hear a political conversation, I even catch my mind starting to pick a tribe. Often I see people driving around with a flag of their sports team (tribe) on their car.

My guess would be that the fifth stage, science and innovation would comprise a lot of tappers. If the current tapper companies went away, it would we left to the bigger companies like Agile (the Intrepid) to pickup the slack. But there instruments are not specifically designed for tapping.

[rjgoos]

The only major change in the scene that wouldn't surprise me is if Emmett and Traktor retire and no one follows in their foot steps.



It is quite possible that both companies have seen their best days with regards to sales, for several reasons. The loose-money, cheap gas, McMansion economy of the past 10-15 years is gone. There is an aging customer demographic (just look at seminar pictures now versus the early 90s). Sales to existing customers driven by new features (different frets, pickups, etc.) can only take you so far. Most enthusiasts by now have an extra in the closet. I don't think the next 10 years will be like the last 10 years.

[loneguitarist]

I think it would be nice to see companies like Hyler, Touch Guitars, and even BearTrax get larger, but what would really be great is if a company like Agile could make an entry-level tapper, maybe 10-string in the Chapman stick tuning, but for about $700. It could be a gateway instrument, maybe with a more conventional body style so that ERG/ERB players would buy it and play it 'standard' style as well as touch guitarists.

A lot of guitarists are aware of two-hand tapping, but in the Eddy Van Halen sense.
It seems to me we don't need to get dedicated instruments into all their hands but to just make them aware of the free hands method, and that tapping isn't just a medium for showing off during a guitar solo.

[Tom Drinkwater]

Tapping is a pretty cool thing. It is not just a guitar technique like say, fingerstyle, because it has its own highly specialized instrument as well as the ability to be utilized on a standard guitar. I suppose the same could be said of the classical guitar being the highly specialized fingerstyle guitar but due to the time line of evolution of the instrument and the techniques it just worked out that way.

The interesting thing about tapping is that the electric guitar made the technique viable for performance. The technique kind of branched off into its own realm and through it was born the bunker guitars and Sticks and then the Warr's, Megatars and others. While tapping an acoustic guitar is perfectly fine it may be necessary to add a pickup of sorts just like if you were going to perform with any other technique.

In the parallel universe of "normal" guitar playing tapping was not widely used until the early 80's and then it was not really the same technique. You may compare rock guitar tapping with sweep picking and string skipping while the other technique has more in common with piano. Now of course with YouTube you can see with your own eyes that regular guitars are fine for both styles of tapping even though a dedicated tapping instrument may be optimal. I think that the internet with it's instant access to video footage will ultimately kill the business for builders of tapping guitars. Just like the internet helped build up the popularity of these great tools it will also show people that they are unnecessary. One or two brands may hang on but I don't know for how long. With the recent interest in extended range guitars and their availability (agile, ibanez and schecter make 8 string for under a grand) how long can the small companies keep doing it?

Another interesting thought is how the heavy metal genre really helped get those extended range instruments out there. Heavy metal sells guitars. How long did Novak make 8 string guitars for Charlie Hunter? How long has Paul Galbraith played classical on 8 string? It took heavy metal to get an affordable 8 string electric on the market because the demand is there. Luckily we have some great tappers in heavy metal. Chris Broderick in Megadeth is a tapping fool. Ron Thal (Guns n Roses) is also a tapping madman. Both of those guys use 6 strings (7's occassionally for Broderick) and while Thal's guitar may look like a foot with bee wings I am willing to bet that they will bring tapping to a wider audience than my favorite Stick players like Bob Culbertson, Jan Laurenz, Greg Howard and Steve Adelson.

[rjgoos]

The glorious day will be when one can simply buy a good tapping instrument from a store or internet retailer like Musican's Friend or Sam Ash. It would change the entire culture associated with these instruments, and for the better.

[Tom Drinkwater]

The glorious day was when you showed us that you can buy a tapper from a hardware store.