The Trademark Nazi...You know who I'm talking about.

[BigDaddyPoo]

Added after my initial flaming of Emmett Chapman:
Please note that the following is not a reflection of the quality of the Chapman Stick Instruments. They are extremely well made and my personal opinions of Stick Enterprises' advertising practices should not dissuade you from trying one out to see if you like it. Emmett Chapman does not now, nor has he ever taken part in any Nazi activities. My calling him a Nazi is merely a reference to a Seinfeld episode. My apology for the inflammatory tone of this post is in a later post.

The initial flaming:
Hi everyone. It's been a while since I last posted here, but I thought I would post today after visiting stick.com. I went to the site to look at prices on a new grand stick. I've been thinking about getting my 3rd instrument made by Emmett (hereafter referred to as the Trademark Nazi). I became pretty miffed (enraged, really) when I clicked on the "Patents and Trademarks" link and saw his personal attack on Tappistry. I would put a link here for those who haven't read it yet, but that would be redirecting you to the Trademark Nazi's website, now wouldn't it? ;)

Here's the "friendly" email I sent.

Dear Emmett,

I hope for the sake of your dwindling Public Relations, you read this letter in its entirety. I understand why you guys forced Megatar to stop using your trademarked name, but tappistry.org?

Tappistry.org is a community of touch style musicians. They do NOT sell a product. It is NOT an advertising tool for Traktor or Megatar. There are hundreds of Chapman Stick players on tappistry including myself and several of my friends. 90% of these players wouldn't be on the forum without first finding it on Google. It is a much more active stick playing community than exists anywhere else, including the 5 forums you link to from your website. You are doing ALL STICK PLAYERS a great disservice. How will new players find a great community like this to learn new techniques and QUICKLY get responses to questions they have. Tappistry is practically YOUR TECHNICAL SUPPORT DEPARTMENT. Much nicer service than you get from calling Stick Enterprises.

Not only is it a great community of stick (and other touch style) players, it's also a great community of instrument builders. Traktor as a matter of respecting possible conflicts of interest DOES NOT ADVERTISE ON TAPPISTRY. However many other builders DO. If you guys would have a presence there, you would probably pick up some new customers looking to upgrade from their lower priced, entry level instruments to one of your fine line of legendary touchboards. Instead, you are losing customers.

With the RUDE PHONE SERVICE you guys have provided me through the years, and now this attack on my favorite online community, you have lost this stick player of almost 20 years. My next touchstyle purchase will not be from Stick. You have opened up the market to several other makers including the main manufacturer you are trying to strike out at, Traktor's own Megatar.

If you guys would lose your "I was here first" attitude and enjoy and be a part of the warm, friendly community your legacy helped to create, you guys could also simultaneously stop shooting your PR in the foot.

Good Luck and Good-Bye,
Dan Pool
Former Stick Player

So why is it that the Trademark Nazi struck out at our beloved site? His arch enemy: Traktor Topaz.

I purchased my first Stick from Mr. Topaz. He used to sell used sticks through a newsletter that he advertised in the back of Guitar Player Magazine. This made the Trademark Nazi very angry. After I played my stick for a year or two, I contacted Emme...excuse me..Trademark Nazi to see about retrofitting the instrument I loved with new electronics and a new bridge. Trademark Nazi and his wife were very rude to me over the phone, and even ruder when they found out who I bought it from. As a result they rejected any possibility of making any money off the Stick Traktor sold to me. It defies logic really. If you are miffed that you didn't make any money from the sale of your instrument, wouldn't you want to bring that customer over to your company to prevent that from happening in the future? Wouldn't you want to be nice to the customer? The customer who just told you that they loved your product?

Fast forward to a year and a half ago. I purchased my second 10 string stick directly from Trademark Nazi himself, because I missed my first one, which I sold on eBay a few years ago.

Now this. I absolutely will not ever purchase anything else from this rude man.

-Dan

P.S. Chin up Traktor, you can't be everyone's friend, but we love you.:D

[Robtech]

It's very true that this forum is equally for all tappers, but you have to admit it was a bit cheeky of Traktor to use learn-chapman-stick.com!

(My first post here, please be gentle! Took delivery of my new Toneweaver Nitro, my first dedicated tapping instrument, just yesterday!)

[rpmartino]

Hi Dan,

If we could separate the two issues here for a moment (your experience of getting "rude" customer support) and trademarks, I wanted to try and clarify something:

Traktor (creator and administrator of tappistry.org) does indeed advertise here (see any of his threads on promotions, product announcements, etc) and he also has every right to do so. But as the trademark decisions by Google and NAF indicate, he is not permitted to use competitor trademarks in the fashion he was using them (i.e. using Stick trademarks in urls and Google ads). While this forum does present itself as being impartial and open to any kind of discussion on tapping, Traktor does indeed run it and any of the various links that lead to Traktor's websites about the Megatar or other informational sources I think can be considered advertising (again which there is nothing inherently wrong with as long as trademarks are properly respected). It's obviously in his best interest if a lot of people are coming here to participate. From your post I got the impression you thought this was an independently run tapping resource.

I'm sorry you feel you got rude customer service from the Chapmans. All I can speak of is my own experience, and they have been very gracious and helpful in their interactions with me over the years (including when I had some complaints and significant problems with a used instrument from 1976 I bought from them in the 90s, which they ultimately bought back from me at the price I originally paid). Like any company you might deal with a lot they aren't perfect (sometimes an email gets overlooked, etc) but they've tended to exceed expectations when it comes to friendliness and responsiveness.

[rjgoos]

Let it go, Dan. If the forum is insulted elsewhere, just ignore it.

Name calling doesn't help. It only starts flame wars.


.

[BigDaddyPoo]

Rob #1, Congratulations on your new instrument. I hope you enjoy it as much as I've enjoyed my tappers.

Rob #2, thanks for your response. It's good to have some contrasting views in this thread since it could easily be seen as an attack on Stick Enterprises. My intention was not to totally trash the Chapman's or their company but to see if anyone else was having similar experiences (reading my post again just now I realize what a bad job I did at conveying this).

From the perspective of customers who have no experience with the company it is easy to see that there is almost as much litigious banter and striking out against competitors on their website as there is info on their instruments. Go to any other instrument makers site and try to find the same. You won't find Fender listing off specific actions against specific companies. They don't do it because it's unprofessional and 99.9% of customers aren't interested in it anyway. I don't vote for candidates that do more attacking than they do informing, and that should carry over to every other facet of my life, including forking out lots of money for premium instruments.

I've heard from someone else that they had pleasant experiences from the Chapmans, but I have to, out of principle, stop buying from a company that has done nothing but push away my business.

As for the question of advertising, I suppose by advertising, I was referring more to banner ads, than Traktors posts. If you look at Traktors approach, even helping out other builders with their questions, I think you could hardly call the sum of his posts advertising. I've even noticed a post or two by Mr. Topaz that praised one aspect or another of Mr. Chapman or his products. Contrast that with what is found on Stick.com and I think you'll see why I'm a little disappointed with their approach.

Again folks, not angry anymore...but a little disappointed. Go easy on me when flaming me back.

Edit: RJ, ya the name calling was a bit much wasn't it.

[jamsire]

I just stay away from calling anyone a >>name<< that begins with an "N."

History shows us why.

[rpmartino]

From the perspective of customers who have no experience with the company it is easy to see that there is almost as much litigious banter and striking out against competitors on their website as there is info on their instruments. Go to any other instrument makers site and try to find the same.

[snip]

I've even noticed a post or two by Mr. Topaz that praised one aspect or another of Mr. Chapman or his products. Contrast that with what is found on Stick.com and I think you'll see why I'm a little disappointed with their approach.

Again folks, not angry anymore...but a little disappointed. Go easy on me when flaming me back.


Hi Dan,

Again I'm sensing that you're not really painting an accurate picture here, but don't worry I'll still "go easy" on you (which strikes me as an ironic thing to ask for after starting this kind of inflammatory thread).

First of all there is only one page on stick.com that I can see about this particular issue, and it was in response to improper use of their trademarks. It really bothers you that the page is there on stick.com, but not that Traktor was found by both Google and NAF to be improperly using SE trademarks?

Second, I'm taking it you didn't see Traktor's Holiday Cheer and Nitro promotions, in which Stick Enterprises was repeatedly accused of deceptive practices such as artificially long wait times and price gouging. Most everyone here who had something to say about the advertising style (including Megatar owners) agreed the ads were not in good taste. The pages are now down and hopefully it also means more of the same won't be coming down the line in the future.

You have your own personal experiences and I can't argue with that, but I felt some of your statements were misleading and needed to be addressed for the sake of anyone else that might be following the thread.

[BigDaddyPoo]

Rob, thanks for going easy on me. You're absolutely correct in that I shouldn't expect anyone to be nice considering how over the top my first post was. One of the things that I like about this board is that it's relatively flame free. It seems I've upset this utopian atmosphere a little with this thread. Well, maybe I upset it a lot.

I didn't realize that Megatar had their own attack advertising against Stick. I guess in keeping with my "no hypocrite" policy I will also not be buying any instruments from Megatar. I hear they're wonderful instruments, but I can't support a company that directly attacks another. It's tasteless. You must admit, though, that speaking of who you had to take legal action against on your website is completely tasteless, too.

[When reading from here on out, please note that an apologetic tone is still being poorly attempted]

I agree that legal action should have been taken on all copyright infringements by Megatar. As for attacking a community that is full of stick players, yourself included, for using the words "Stick", "touchboard" and "Chapman Stick" to bring people into the community; that is just ridiculous. It's keeping people from being a part of this community. Also, it is inconsistent to state that this site is a "marketing tool" for Mr. Topaz when there are banner ads for other manufacturers. Banner ads found here: Krappy, Oakland Axe Factory, Marcodi, Kuyabu, etc. In fact I hit refresh on the home page probably 50 times and never once saw a Megatar banner ad.

I do want to address one more thing that you said.
First of all there is only one page on stick.com that I can see about this particular issue, and it was in response to improper use of their trademarks.
I realize this is only one page, but I did a little study into this.

The page we are refering to has 861 words.
All pages of instrument information on stick.com totals 1794 words. This includes details on all 7 instruments in the Stick line, and all information under the components links. It doesn't include instructional material, accessories or artist infromation.
That brings us to a grand total of 2655 words, meaning that one third of the info is in regards to legal actions taken against Mr. Topaz.


There is no information on Fender, Gibson or Ibanez websites about taking actions against other parties. See my point? This is terrible advertising practice.

I have sent an email to Emmett recanting some of the angry things that I said to him, but hopefully he can see where I'm coming from.

[Jersey Ray]

Daddy Poo

There's nothing to be sorry for - the customer is always right. Especially when the customer has good cash money to spend. In times like these, anyone who won't take your money is an idiot.

But all the same, remember that the music should always come first. Practice your songs, and if you have problems buying a specific instrument, there is always e-bay.

Just focus on the music, and let others bicker in the public square. Good luck!

Ray

[traktor]

For what it is worth, in my Holiday Cheer and Nitro Explosion promotions, Stick Enterprises was never mentioned once. The description given here is exaggerated, though everyone is entitled to an opinion.

For what it is worth, there was no 'decision' made by Google. They have some rules and I stepped on one of them, and they said don't do that, so I didn't.

For what it is worth, in a recent arbitration flapdoodle, two domains of mine containing the words 'chapman stick', which I felt to be fair usage, were examined by an arbitration procedure.

At the end, they decided that Mr. Chapman had made a good argument on one of the domains and so he got the rights to learn-chapman-stick.com.

And at the end, they decided that I had made a good argument on the other, and that I should continue to hold rights to chapmanstickmegatarcomparison.com.

I refer any interested party to those documents, which would be preferable to folks 'reporting' here when they were not present, and also haven't seen those documents.

If Emmett wishes to proclaim his happiness, then God Bless Him. He could have have the domain in question with a 25 cent phone call, but that's not the path he chose. I wish him well, and last I heard he was putting up a site on that domain which will be of benefit to musicians.

Good deal then.

Does it matter to me that Emmett will be selling *his* books on how to play a Chapman Stick on the learn-chapman-stick.com domain instead of me selling *my* books on how to play a Chapman Stick on the domain?

Not really. It's pretty small potatoes. Either way, folks will learn to play, and music will flourish as a result.

And for a good pathway to follow, I'd suggest that Jersey Ray has nailed it ...
Just focus on the music, and let others bicker in the public square.

.

[BigDaddyPoo]

Does noone watch Seinfeld? :rolleyes: Soup Nazi? No? It was meant to be semi funny. Angry funny, but funny nonetheless.

[traktor]

Guys, leave it.

Names were called, some charges levelled, apologies rendered, emotion vented.

Time to move on. Bedragging it around and hurling more mud helps nobody, makes nobody look more 'righteous.' Just ...

Time to move on. Nothing to see here folks. Time to move on.

[adde65]

BigDaddyPoo: your name calling was a little bit excesive...

Andy: BigDaddyPoo, edited his post with an explanation and posted an apology...

Please can we close this thread? Why does these things keep coming back? Andy as an aussy, can you explain me how to throw a boomerang and make sure it DOESN'T come back?

Cheers, Daniel

Sorry Daniel,

I'm not a real Aussie, I'm a Greek Swede with an American passport who happens to live in Australia (I do however use my real name).

I recently talked to one of my Aboriginal didj-playing friends about boomerangs. Basically, if you hit your target it's not meant to come back.

Hope that answers your question; I know it helped answer mine.

Cheers,
Andy

[K Rex]

Ugh. Ernie, Traktor and I know quite well that history repeats itself... right folks?

I've always had a very pleasant experience with Yuta and Emmett over the phone. Even after the last "flame war" that dragged on and on, Yuta was nice to me over the phone despite my battle of words with Greg.

And even though Greg's tactics on Tappistry were suspect, I quite liked him when I communicated with him off-forum.

Life's too short, guys. Let your purchasing power in a free marketplace speak for you. Emmett can't sell to those who dislike him, same goes for anyone else.

By the way, my solo project has become a full-fledged three-piece band. I'll be posting some rehearsals in the next day or two, but until then enjoy some PC recordings.

Go Here: www.myspace.com/schismatrix23

Peace to all,

Kev

[Robtech]

You call that PC?!?

Rather stimulating. Thought I caught an echo of Third era Soft Machine.

[strictlybox]

You call that PC?!?

Rather stimulating. Thought I caught an echo of Third era Soft Machine.

Should probably change the title of this thread or create a new one as the original has been unintentionally hijacked............... and for that matter the original should be deleted in its entirety, or would that create a Censorship Nazi thread ???

[lactose]

When I was thinking about plunking down $2k for an instrument, I did a lot of researching about the instruments and the companies behind them, since I am somewhat of a consumer rights *******.

Traktor spoke with me personally a couple of times about the instrument, and has set up a free site where his competition is welcome. I find that impressive. I think if you do some research, you will get a good idea about the differences between the two companies.

[adde65]

Should probably change the title of this thread or create a new one as the original has been unintentionally hijacked............... and for that matter the original should be deleted in its entirety, or would that create a Censorship Nazi thread ???

To answer your question...feel free to PM me.

[K Rex]

Um... That's PC as in "personal computer", not "politically correct".

I recorded it straight to my PC. I love Soft Machine, incidentally.

Didn't mean to hijack the thread. Sorry guys.

Kev

[arsacane]

...
Didn't mean to hijack the thread. Sorry guys.
...


I glad that you did and put it in the right direction; we should be talking music here :)

Cheers, arsacane

[lord_avon]

I'm not about name calling, nor will I ever be.
But I'd like to relay my personal experience of both Stick Enterprises and Megatar.

a few years back, I decided to purchase a touch style instrument, I contacted various people and heard good things about both the stick and megatar.
In the end I found a european dealer for SE, so I contaced him and awent via that wrote (as I live in the UK).

I ordered a 10 string graphite XG, standard SE tuning, was told by the distributer it should 6 - 8 months, paid my deposit, and started saving.

6 months later I contacted the distributer and he said he'd heard nothing and I should try contacting SE, so I did.
A fornight later after having had no response from email, I called. Left a phone machine message, with order ref, email address, phone number, etc...
A month later, nothing.
Eventually I managed to call SE, speak to a person and was told it was in hand they were waiting for some parts, should be shipped in a month.
I contacted the distributer and paid the remainder of my balance.

a month later, nothing.
I contacted SE, they were still waiting for parts.

I found the person on the end of the phone at SE to be very "short" with me, like I should be honoured to be able to order a stick.

Anyway, this continued and continued and eventually I got my stick, 16 months after I placed the order. By this time, because of the wait and anger I felt, I had lost all love for it, and sold it within a week (for the price I paid for it).

a year so later, and I'm looking again, this time I contact Sir Traktor. I've been badgering him on and off since my SE experience, but boy, What a difference!!!
Responsive to emails (usually less than 12 hours, given the time difference that's superb), we dicuss what I'm looking for, what options I have, and what would be best for me. probably about a dozen emails exchanged within 24 hours.
I placed my order, two weeks ago. Estimated time to ship, approx 5 weeks from order date. what a difference! 8 months compared to 5 weeks!!

So, I have to say, based on my personal experience, if you want friendly advice and good service, talk to Traktor, if you want the "name" visit SE.

Like I say these are *MY* experiences, I'm sure others have different ones.

Paul

[lactose]

Sorry to hear about your bad experience.

I think these topics are appropriate here. I dislike name calling and personal attacks, but that is rare here. When you buy from a small company, the attitude of the management can be more important.

I think the way this forum is run garners a lot of good will. I was just recommending a Megatar to someone yesterday.

[Mad Monk]

Customer service and "attitude" have nothing to do with the design and quality of an instrument.
Because Emmet Chapman insists on setting up every Stick himself, and does the custom work (all the while developing new models), there is a long waiting period, and sometimes delays; many of us are willing to accept that. The prevailing "attitude" at SE is a concern for quality.
I'm about to order the new SG-12, a short-scale 12-string tapper. I know it will seem to take forever, but I also know it will be worth the wait....

Mad Monk.

[strictlybox]

I'm not about name calling, nor will I ever be.
But I'd like to relay my personal experience of both Stick Enterprises and Megatar.

a few years back, I decided to purchase a touch style instrument, I contacted various people and heard good things about both the stick and megatar.
In the end I found a european dealer for SE, so I contaced him and awent via that wrote (as I live in the UK).

I ordered a 10 string graphite XG, standard SE tuning, was told by the distributer it should 6 - 8 months, paid my deposit, and started saving.

6 months later I contacted the distributer and he said he'd heard nothing and I should try contacting SE, so I did.
A fornight later after having had no response from email, I called. Left a phone machine message, with order ref, email address, phone number, etc...
A month later, nothing.
Eventually I managed to call SE, speak to a person and was told it was in hand they were waiting for some parts, should be shipped in a month.
I contacted the distributer and paid the remainder of my balance.

a month later, nothing.
I contacted SE, they were still waiting for parts.

I found the person on the end of the phone at SE to be very "short" with me, like I should be honoured to be able to order a stick.

Anyway, this continued and continued and eventually I got my stick, 16 months after I placed the order. By this time, because of the wait and anger I felt, I had lost all love for it, and sold it within a week (for the price I paid for it).

a year so later, and I'm looking again, this time I contact Sir Traktor. I've been badgering him on and off since my SE experience, but boy, What a difference!!!
Responsive to emails (usually less than 12 hours, given the time difference that's superb), we dicuss what I'm looking for, what options I have, and what would be best for me. probably about a dozen emails exchanged within 24 hours.
I placed my order, two weeks ago. Estimated time to ship, approx 5 weeks from order date. what a difference! 8 months compared to 5 weeks!!

So, I have to say, based on my personal experience, if you want friendly advice and good service, talk to Traktor, if you want the "name" visit SE.

Like I say these are *MY* experiences, I'm sure others have different ones.

Paul

exactly how much does Traktor pay you to spread this bovine shizer every two weeks ?? Let it go man, nobody except Traktor appreciates your posts, no wonder SE gives you crappy service !!

[lord_avon]

Customer service and "attitude" have nothing to do with the design and quality of an instrument.

Totally agree, but I for one don't appreciate being treated as a second class citizen. I worked hard to save that money.



exactly how much does Traktor pay you to spread this bovine shizer every two weeks ?? Let it go man, nobody except Traktor appreciates your posts, no wonder SE gives you crappy service !!

Check my post history, I've never brought this up before, and I won't again.
If the reverse had been true, I'd have posted it here just the same.

Paul

[K Rex]

Glenn,

Exactly what was it that made you believe Avon was being paid by Traktor? Here we are again lambasting those who share their experiences with SE/Warr/Megatar with the other forum members. If I'm not mistaken, Glenn, this wouldn't be the first time you have done this, correct? How many times must I point this out before we all identify the pattern?

Let me now share my experiences, since this is the appropriate thread to do so:

I got my first Stick in '93. Contacted SE about having an NS Stick built in '03 (I think). Yuta told me they were waiting on the new production of the NS and she would put my name on the list to be contacted when a new production run happened. Then I would make a deposit and wait 5 months for build and shipping. Never heard from anyone. I contacted them again 6 months later, spoke to Emmett who told me the same thing I was told before. I sure would have liked to have one, but one was not forthcoming, at least not within a reasonable time period for a serious musician.

I traded my stick for a Warr Phalanx in '04 through this forum. A no-brainer, really when you add the numbers... a $900 stick (what I paid for a used one in '93) for a $3000 Phalanx, duh.

It isn't uncommon to hear stories of SE taking FOREVER to ship their instruments. Many, many stick players will attest to this. I even read a heated exchange between a guy and Emmett on Stickist because the dude paid his deposit for an NS and waited for a year and a half before he got it.

Am I making this stuff up, Glenn? Am I also being paid by Traktor? Traktor, how much am I getting for this post?

Hey Glenn, how long do you think it would take for me to receive a megatar if I placed an order today? You think Traktor needs Lord Avon from the UK to convince people that it takes a a fraction of the time SE would take to ship a good instrument? From which planet do you stick-purist folks hail?

Hey Glenn, your energy would be better spent contributing something to the discussion instead of sniping and smearing someone you don't know who is merely sharing his experience on a thread created for that very purpose.

Hey Glenn, I promise I won't be sore if you post a lengthy missive on the merits of waiting 10 to 18 months for an instrument you could have in a few weeks. That's just fine with me if you decide a stick is that much better. Sticks are great. Go for it. Just don't denigrate reasonable people when they express frustration with that name brand for lousy customer service.

K

[Jersey Ray]

K-Rex: that was very well put.

For what it's worth, this was always my only problem with Warr Guitars, that it took twice as long as they would say it would, to deliver a guitar. Still I think they are the best in the business, and each instrument is truly unique. I have never seen two Warr guitars with the same wood combinations. Jim Wright would always give a good explaination on the phone for the wait, usually it was a delay from Bartolini. Now that Warr is making his own pickups, maybe this will no longer be a problem. And as much as I, and others, griped online about the long wait times at Warr, we were never subject to personal attacks or online "flamewars" with the manufacturer. They put the customer first.

It seems that Traktor has streamlined his manufacturing process. If he can deliver his instruments quickly, then he deserves all the credit in the world for filling that market need.

The most important thing is to get an instrument in your hands that you are comfortable with and to practice, practice, practice.

[Mad Monk]

I too waited 18 months for an NS...but what a great, and unique instrument. The wait became irrelevant once I got hold of it.

Likewise with the SG12--who else has put out a tapper with the correct range for keyboard music...? This is destined to be an influential model (I hope).



Mad Monk.

[K Rex]

I wouldn't have waited more than 6 months for a Warr, and wouldn't now, despite my love of the instrument. Yes, they're the best. Hands down. I'd still love to have an NS, but I'd have to sell the Warr (not gonna happen), and then I'd have to be without for over a year (doubly not gonna happen).

I'd also like to have a graphite 10-string grand. Ultimately, though, the wait is too prohibitive for those with a budget. If I could keep my Warr, perhaps... but then, if I can wait a year for a stick... why not wait 8 months for another Warr?

If the trade wasn't an opportunity for me, I would be a megatar owner.

Kev

[adde65]

Glenn,

Exactly what was it that made you believe Avon was being paid by Traktor? Here we are again lambasting those who share their experiences with SE/Warr/Megatar with the other forum members. If I'm not mistaken, Glenn, this wouldn't be the first time you have done this, correct? How many times must I point this out before we all identify the pattern?

Let me now share my experiences, since this is the appropriate thread to do so:

I got my first Stick in '93. Contacted SE about having an NS Stick built in '03 (I think). Yuta told me they were waiting on the new production of the NS and she would put my name on the list to be contacted when a new production run happened. Then I would make a deposit and wait 5 months for build and shipping. Never heard from anyone. I contacted them again 6 months later, spoke to Emmett who told me the same thing I was told before. I sure would have liked to have one, but one was not forthcoming, at least not within a reasonable time period for a serious musician.

I traded my stick for a Warr Phalanx in '04 through this forum. A no-brainer, really when you add the numbers... a $900 stick (what I paid for a used one in '93) for a $3000 Phalanx, duh.

It isn't uncommon to hear stories of SE taking FOREVER to ship their instruments. Many, many stick players will attest to this. I even read a heated exchange between a guy and Emmett on Stickist because the dude paid his deposit for an NS and waited for a year and a half before he got it.

Am I making this stuff up, Glenn? Am I also being paid by Traktor? Traktor, how much am I getting for this post?

Hey Glenn, how long do you think it would take for me to receive a megatar if I placed an order today? You think Traktor needs Lord Avon from the UK to convince people that it takes a a fraction of the time SE would take to ship a good instrument? From which planet do you stick-purist folks hail?

Hey Glenn, your energy would be better spent contributing something to the discussion instead of sniping and smearing someone you don't know who is merely sharing his experience on a thread created for that very purpose.

Hey Glenn, I promise I won't be sore if you post a lengthy missive on the merits of waiting 10 to 18 months for an instrument you could have in a few weeks. That's just fine with me if you decide a stick is that much better. Sticks are great. Go for it. Just don't denigrate reasonable people when they express frustration with that name brand for lousy customer service.

K
I understand the sentiment above, because my early communications with SE (via email only) were frustrating. However, my personal experience over ten years has been that if I'm prepared to be patient and accept that not every email message will be returned, I'm ultimately rewarded with both quick and friendly service.

I'm not sure of the timeline, but NS production was slowed/halted a few years back due to a problem with a parts supplier or some stage of the manufacturing process. This hasn't been an issue recently, and I think you'll find that you can now usually get an NS in less time than a conventional Stick. SE also has a good turnover of second hand instruments, including NS/Sticks. They had one available a few months ago when I emailed them.

Every instrument is different, and every manufacturer has their own way of doing things. It's not unheard of to have to wait up to 3 years for some acoustic guitars, with at least 50% payment up front. If anything, the Stick is an "easy" instrument to buy if you're on a budget, because you don't have to pay the bulk of the price until your instrument is finished.

As far as Megatar goes, I think the ONLY issue many people have here is the style of advertising Traktor adopts. Once again, this includes several Megatar players. If you don't know that, talk to some of them off the forum.

I do still have an problem with one of my posts in this thread being censored (removed) by the administrator, who also uses the forum as a vehicle for company promotions. I have yet to be given an adequate explanation for this action.

Cheers,
Andy

[K Rex]

Censorship is a BIG no-no...

Good post, and very interesting, Andy.

k

[jamsire]

The only thing we should ever wait for is the day we learn our instruments the way that makes us feel proud to be musicians.

That's why Jersey Ray blows me away - he plays the most complicated accordian I know about! And he's quite amazing.

Waiting???? I hated waiting for people to believe me when I tried explain problems with their products. I also enjoyed waiting for prices of products to go down after I bought them.

Wait to until the day you get better - the best wait to resolution I know.

But then again - what do I know?:mad:

[dtapper]

bigdaddypoo.......NO SOUP FOR YOU! NEXT!
love jerry

[strictlybox]

So the "Trademark Nazi" thread lives on, no doubt due to the fact that The Instrument Whore wants it to ..................

Kindly direct all responses to your local recycle bins, afterall, that's where they all belong !!!

[rjgoos]

So the "Trademark Nazi" thread lives on, no doubt due to the fact that The Instrument Whore wants it to ..................

Kindly direct all responses to your local recycle bins, afterall, that's where they all belong !!!


Is there any way that this thread can disappear...as in permanently??

[traktor]

This thread, Glenn's comments and theories notwithstanding, does not matter a rat's patootie to me one way or the other. (And I'm not quite sure how I became the villain in this thread, having had nothing to do with it in any way at any point in time.)

Glenn, please don't explain it to me any further. I know, you have the belief that you know what's in my mind, but you're striking out so far, and I'd appreciate no further sliming and name-calling, OK?

Here's the problem, though I have an idea how to solve it ...

Two things are bad ...

(a) Name calling is bad. Like for example, where in this thread Mr. Chapman is called the Trademark Nazi. The fact that it's a reference to the 'Soup Nazi' in the Seinfeld series matters not. People take offense; feelings are hurt. Apologies help, but better if it hadn't appeared in the first place.

To be specific, according to our forum rules, being rude to other members of this forum is against the rules. Actually, there's nothing there about being rude to folks (like Mr. Chapman or President Bush) who are *not* members nor contributors here. However, it's still a bad thing.

And of course, Glenn's calling me names is actually reason enough to throw him out, because it's against the rules. However, in spite of poor behavior, I like Glenn and would rather just somehow persuade him to stop the smear. I'm not sure why I've been targeted for this. It's absurd.

(b) Censorship is bad. Like for example, deleting this thread.

It indicates a lack of respect for the posters therein, pro and con. It imposes an arbitrary set of rules. And who is to say where this line is to end? A famous schoolchild quote, "The only thing wrong with democracy is just letting any old yokel vote."

Generally I prefer not to delete threads. I have on just a couple of occasions deleted flame-bait or flaming posts inside a thread, where they were clearly a violation of our rules, completely egregious, and had no obvious reason for being there.

I have never deleted a thread. Greg Howard once deleted a thread of his own. He hadn't come off very well in that thread, and I guess he preferred that it vanish. But what about the other people who had posted to that thread. Was it right that he obliterate their thoughts?

Personally, I think not. Censorship is bad.


Now, if *I* decide this, there is no winning. There is only losing.

On the one hand, Glenn has no right nor authority to dictate what other people may or may not read. Or say. It's kind of part of the Constitution, and the Constitution makes no exception for stuff that annoys Glenn. And his name-calling is not a very persuasive argument against the evils of name-calling.

On the other hand, this thread seems to be of rather limited value. A guy blew his stack, was corrected gently by cooler heads, and by the time I came along and saw it, he'd apologized and the matter seemed to be sorting itself out. So far so good.

But although Glenn claims he doesn't like this thread, now and then he posts here, which raises it to the surface again. Well, duh.


If I sound annoyed at this childishness, maybe I am. Though, come to think of it, I personally have behaved far worse and with less reason, now and then, so I have no room to talk either.


However, here's the scoop.

First, I couldn't care less.

Second, I absolutely am not going to pay any attention to anyone personally growling at me about the thread or growling about censorship, because there is absolutely no way in the universe that either path will make everyone happy. Jesus Christ, aided by Albert Einstein and Muhammed, couldn't make this work for everyone. Period.


But, since I don't care one way or the other, a possible path of action that might somewhat resolve it a bit has occurred to me.

I propose that we simply have a vote. We will leave the voting open for a week or so, because we have many members who only drop by now and then.

The choices will be two:

A) Kill the Thread

B) Leave it Alone

At the end of the week, the winners get their choice.

And anyone who doesn't like it can kiss my rats patootie.

Is that fair?

I'm waiting to hear agreement before doing anything.

No comment, no vote, you lose all moral rights to whine later.

OK? Is this fair? Is this vote a good idea?

Yes or no?

And no whining, name-calling, or drivel. Just state your views reasonably, and leave it at that please.

[Rrawman]

Hi there

Censorship is something that should only be used if the content is harming a group of "people", like perhaps children, that don't have the ability to choose for them selfs or defends them selfs.

I don't think any adults can be truly harmed by insults.

In Denmark it's actually possible to join the naziparty....if you like :confused::D. There's a wide palette of stupid things to do and say overhere. You can't delete stupidity, you know. This doesn't mean that we (the Danes) use that liberty in any case. Freedom of expression should be used wisely.....but sometimes it takes a matter like the "Muhammed drawings" to shake the tree.

I think that we should be more tolerant....even towards insults.

Best wishes

-lennart

[K Rex]

Censorship is a BIG no-no...

... yes, it is. As many times as I've witnessed folks attacking Traktor on this site (usually in the context of a debate over Stick vs. Brand A), I haven't caught him deleting a post because of vitriol toward him. Once upon a time there was a thread about a certain NY seminar that was deleted, not because of a need to censor, but because it became incoherent and irrelevant. The main posts there were between Greg Howard, Traktor and me. Greg left the forum in anger and his posts subsequently disappeared, leaving an incomprehensible jumble of posts without context. I'm sure there is little regret for that, since it was indeed embarrassing to behold.

Traktor, erasing this post would be contrary to your own rules and stated doctrine of fairness. You should keep it just because it seems to be the thread in which Jersey Ray posted here for the last time. The theme of this thread seems to me to be the merits of one instrument manufacturer over another and there were some good points made in it. Would deleting this thread indicate we are not allowed to discuss such things on this forum any longer? That would legitimize the "don't dare criticize manufacturers" sentiment which has sullied Tappistry, in my opinion. This should be a place where people can discuss that very thing. And while "Nazi" isn't a polite term for a respectable and distinguished businessman (especially considering his german heritage), the content of the thread is legitimate. Don't be a fool, Traktor. I do understand Daniel's withdrawal.

This site needs more discussion of this sort, more freedom to critically evaluate differences, not less. It is becoming a drag here, because people harbor guilt even for someone else "badmouthing" instruments so much that they no longer post.

Yes, it takes SE too long to get a stick into my hands. Let's talk about it. Let's talk about what makes the stick better than other tappers. Let's talk about how heavy the Warr is and what makes them the best despite the weight. Let's talk about Traktor's quick turnaround time.

Let's just avoid being unkind or silly.

K

[GaryOpenhill]

Hi there

Censorship is something that should only be used if the content is harming a group of "people", like perhaps children, that don't have the ability to choose for them selfs or defends them selfs.

I don't think any adults can be truly harmed by insults.

In Denmark it's actually possible to join the naziparty....if you like :confused::D. There's a wide palette of stupid things to do and say overhere. You can't delete stupidity, you know. This doesn't mean that we (the Danes) use that liberty in any case. Freedom of expression should be used wisely.....but sometimes it takes a matter like the "Muhammed drawings" to shake the tree.

I think that we should be more tolerant....even towards insults.

Best wishes

-lennart

Lennart,i can confirm that your point is true. I JUST took a roadtrip trough all of denmark (done many of them before and will soon do another), and i can confirm that danes are are very tolerant towards strange and silly practices and people but at the same time able to keep their values intact. They just dont feel like its their mission in life to tell everybody else whats right all the time, because they value human relations and friendship and PEACE higher and to achieve that they are ready to tolerate much weirdness from others. They even seem to have an interest in how other people have come to oposite conclusions rather than just proove them wrong. Great attitude.
That doesnt make them gutless GIRLIEMEN, as anyone that have tried to do business with danish companies knows.

And according to several well known UK scientific surveys from 2008 (used by UN, WHO and other top organisations) danes are rated the happiest people in the world again, and that is a fact that totally can be felt traveling there. And there is a reason for that, but its not good health, high morality or low taxes (believe me!). I think the min reason is their friendly attitude. Its more important than we think.
Sorry, to say USA didnt even make the top 20 believe it or not! We Norwegians almost didnt either despite all our oil. We have a lot to learn from the danes.

[adde65]

"(b) Censorship is bad. Like for example, deleting this thread."


But it is apparently ok to remove a particular post in the thread?

I would have thought this form of censorship is more insidious than removing the entire thread.

Cheers,
Andy

[dtapper]

some of you people are killing me, but here i am joining in so yes hypocrite. people should be able to express themselves as long as swinging their fist doesn't connect with anyone's nose. leave tractor alone in the name calling like his way or not he is only a man doing his thing to make it in the world, i was not paid for said comment. do you guy really think the arguement my tapper can beat up your tapper is really that genius. stick guys, warr dudes, megatarist, and all others who just stand on a hill and just scream in the wind should really think harder about what matters than waving their flag behind their walls.

[grozeil]

I've been said that some members were banned from this forum. Is that a normal behaviour here?

[PhoBucket]

In what may be the only administrative act I ever do on this forum, I am closing this thread, if only because it disgusts me to keep seeing the thread title pop up on the main forum page and discourage people from viewing what is usually an excellent forum category.

For the record, I have not banned anyone or censored any posts; that would be the main administrator/owner, which is up to him, whether or not we agree.

In fact, I have just now figured out how to close a thread. Hope it works.