A Question of Radius?

[Cybaddiction]

Right I thought I would start my tapper in the next couple of months or so and will be starting a thread soon about that. However this one is really about radiusing fretboards....

Any thoughts ? Why is the stick flat ? Is the Megatar fretboard also flat? What are the pros and cons....I think that the Krappy aluminium (UK English spelling) has a radius. What would be the best radius to use? Thoughts would be appreciated...what is the radius on the solene? :confused:

[lactose]

I don't remember the Megatar having a radius. My current project has no radius - fret board OR neck ! I just don't seem to need it, and I am lazy.

Items to consider if using a radius:
-will you need special sanding blocks ?
-you may need a custom caul if you use a fret press
-fret leveling may be more difficult
-cutting the nut may be more difficult
-you may need pickups with adjustable pole pieces (which means your string spacing now needs to match the pickup poles).

[Tom Drinkwater]

Having a radiused fretboard is a matter of comfort. Everything I have read about the subject goes back to having a more natural hand position while fretting chords in the first few positions of a standard guitar.

The radiused fretboard comes in two types. cylinder or straight radius and conical or compound radius. A plain old radiused fretboard like a Fender or Gibson has the same radius from saddle to nut whereas a compound radius will be flatter up in the higher frets and more curve in the lower ones. The reason for making a compound radius is simply too be able to get the lowest action possible and be able to bend the strings without fretting out while playing up over the 12th fret and be able to fret the low chords comfortably. For years many guitar builders and repairmen have been sanding a compound radius into fretboards during a re-fret. You can achieve a slight compound radius by sanding in line with the string lies while levelling the board. Basically sanding in the tapered direction of the strings will create a conical fretboard and eliminate the high spots created by a cylindrical fretboard. Some boards like 05Ric's extended range guitar/bass are radiused on the treble side of the board and flat on the bass side. Once again, I believe this was for comfort while fretting chords.

Flat fretboards-I have several instruments with flat fretboards, my Megatar, classical guitar, mandolin, octave mandolin, 8 string extended range guitar, and 2 laptars. I don't believe that there is much to gain by adding a radius to a tapper but I could be wrong. I think one reason the Stick was never radiused was the huge stainless steel fret rods. After playing my Megatar for a year and half I have never wished it was radiused. In addition to classical guitar being flat I read once that Shawn Lane used some custom guitars from Caparison that were nonradiused. Of course slide guitars are also flat but for other reasons.

I think that playing position has alot to do with it too. If you are going to hold the tapper in a guitar position and play chords or even bar chords than I would probably sand a little radius in. If you are going to play more upright like the Stick or Megatar than I would probably leave it flat.

[arsacane]

....
I think one reason the Stick was never radiused was the huge stainless steel fret rods.
...


The first Sticks had jumbo frets... I think that the Stick is flat is to ease the construction, but of course only Emmet could give a definitive answer ;-)

Cheers, Daniel.

[Cybaddiction]

Some great answers here so far.. of course the stick has rails or rods...but is that a result of having a flat fingerboard? I don't know....

I have a 10" radius block for doing most of my guitar/bass work. I like this as it tends to feel rounded at the head end and fairly flat towards the body. However a tapper will have a wider neck ...this was my concern.

Any more advice/anecdotes etc. will be greatly appreciated.

:D

[rjgoos]

I believe that Warr guitars are available with or without a specified radius. Maybe someone with a Warr could clarify.

[Tom Drinkwater]

I went ahead and sent a message to Greg Howard asking about his thoughts about the radius vs. flat fretboard question. He has many years on a Stick so I thought his opinion would be worth consideration, here it is as it was copied from my myspace page.

----------------- Original Message -----------------
From: Tom
Date: Jan 14, 2009 9:14 AM


I don't know if you remember me, my name is Tom Drinkwater, I used to post on Tappistry when you were a memeber there. The reason I am messaging you is with a question about the ergonomic value of a flat fretboard. We have a thread going about whether or not a flat board is 'better' than a fret board with a radius. I am of the mind that a flat board is fine for a tapper (as shown on your Sticks) and the benefits of the radius that apply to typical electric guitars don't apply to tappers that are held like a Stick. Most people consider you the guru of ergonomics and technique on the Stick so I was wondering if you would like to share your view point. I hope you and your family are having a great 2009 so far, all the best.

Tom Drinkwater



Hi Tom,

Please feel free to post my thoughts, but please provide them together with your entire original question, so that my answer won't be taken out of context.

I'm not the guru, Emmett is, but thanks for the thought. Flat fretboards work great because the hand should be allowed to form all shapes with equal ease. A curved fingerboard might make it more difficult to play intervals that skip strings, for example, which could lead to accidental attacks. They are also easier to build and the low action that is required for tappers makes a flat fretboard a real advantage in setups.

The flat fretboard also makes use of better fret design, like Emmett's Rails, possible. This might be the biggest advantage, because these frets are such an improvement over conventional press-in frets.

But back to the broader basis (a consistent playing surface), irregularity is one reason why, in my opinion, fanned frets are not such a great idea for a tapper, because the ergonomics of interval shapes changes depending where you are tapping (playing double-stops near the nut with the right hand, for example, is more difficult, as is playing with the left hand above the 12th fret). If you're segregating the roles of each hand this isn't a problem, but I like to be able to play anything, anywhere, with equal ease. Emmett designs his instruments with that in mind.

The graduated fretboard is something we have to live with, so making it as uniform as possible in other respects for each hand makes Emmett's Free Hands method more universally applicable. Since Free Hands is all about equal opportunity for the hands, as opposed to the Touch System approach where each hand had a different relationship with the strings, this is an important concept when building a Free Hands based instrument.

In the future if you want to to ask a question that can benefit others, please do it on Stickwire or the stickist. com forum. I post to these quite frequently, andthey are open to non-stick (we call them Teflon) instruments as well.

Thanks for your interest in my opinion and Happy Hew Year to you, too.

Happy Tapping,
Greg
http://www. greghoward. com
http://www. stick. com

[jamsire]

But back to the broader basis (a consistent playing surface), irregularity is one reason why, in my opinion, fanned frets are not such a great idea for a tapper, because the ergonomics of interval shapes changes depending where you are tapping (playing double-stops near the nut with the right hand, for example, is more difficult, as is playing with the left hand above the 12th fret). If you're segregating the roles of each hand this isn't a problem, but I like to be able to play anything, anywhere, with equal ease. Emmett designs his instruments with that in mind.

The graduated fretboard is something we have to live with, so making it as uniform as possible in other respects for each hand makes Emmett's Free Hands method more universally applicable. Since Free Hands is all about equal opportunity for the hands, as opposed to the Touch System approach where each hand had a different relationship with the strings, this is an important concept when building a Free Hands based instrument.

In the future if you want to to ask a question that can benefit others, please do it on Stickwire or the stickist. com forum. I post to these quite frequently, andthey are open to non-stick (we call them Teflon) instruments as well.

Thanks for your interest in my opinion and Happy Hew Year to you, too.

Happy Tapping,
Greg
http://www. greghoward. com
http://www. stick. com

I would have to agree with Greg's response. Though I like fanned frets, when I received the MaxTapper, it reminded how easy it used to be play that way - equi-fingered (if you will). When I re-visited my Sticks lately for the Guitar Rig video, that was also - easier. And my hands are somewhat large.

That's my own two frets worth.

"Teflon" - love it.

[Tom Drinkwater]

One thing I learned recently, thanks to Jamsire, was how nice a fretboard feels when the edges are rounded off. The wonderful Linc Luthier baritone guitar that I got to play was the smoothest most liquid feeling instrument I have ever held. The fretboard edges, including the fret ends were rounded off and it was sooooooooo nice. I have played guitars with the rolled edge and it is nice but Linc definitely goes the extra mile and makes his stuff very comfy.

[Cybaddiction]

Wow...great response...thanks guys. A big hand to Tom and Mr. Howard for the input so far.

In reference to the rounded edge thing, I have to say that I would not willingly go back from a bound edge fretboard again. The rounded plastic binding just seens to make the hand fly up and down the neck..(if that is what you want to do).

I am not sure how this would apply to a tapper though in terms of ergonomics.

Also the beveled neck of a stick...good bad or ugly? What are your opinions people? I would say they are easy to mass produce on jigs. I made a fretless mini scale length bass with a large round-over bit so I guess almost the opposite of a stick contour. That was oak (wierdly) and has a great feel to it. :)

[Tom Drinkwater]

I don't do binding yet but I have a custom job coming up for a fellow in Germany. I think that binding will look fantastic on his guitar. I like the idea of wood binding too. I can make that myself. Plastic binding is fairly inexpensive to buy though and it does keep the edges from getting knicked badly. I would love to see a pic of that mini bass!!

The Solene is made from a pipe so it of course has a radius. From what I hear it is pretty comfy but it has 7 strings.

[lactose]

I am a big fan (pardon the pun) of fanned frets. I own two guitars, and a bass with FF. I will say, however, that on longer scale instruments, the bottom couple of frets can require a little work to play. I notice it on my bass, and am noticing it on my tapper I just built. I am wishing I made this tapper with a 25 or 28 inch scale now. The FF do get you attention from the music store sales people and the women, though.

[Cybaddiction]

Tom, binding is real easy...honestly...so long as you plan correctly.

You need a router bit with a roller bearing that is 2mm smaller than the radius of the cutter. (approx) also if you have or can buy a router
table that is better than a plunge (overarm) router.

There is sometimes an issue of the fence getting in the way on router tables so make sure you have some form of safety fence set up even if it is a homemade bent fence.

Cut the channel around the body as you would in stages with a round-over bit etc. then cyano in the binding in as long a section as possible. Will need cutting and sanding to finnish.

Necks need a little more planning. :confused: so you need to allow just under the width of the binding by cutting the fretboard 1-2mm smaller than it should be in terms of width...glue it in and bob's your auntie its ready for sanding, fretting etc.

I haven't got access to the bass at the mo and I have borrowed the machineheads...I will post a thread/pics etc. when I get it sorted. It is fairly roughly constucted but was designed to save my back from having to carry the big monsters to rehearsal when I didn't have the car.

Lactose, love the tapper...kind of feels a bit space-aged to me. also a fan of headless instruments. I will have to have a go at fanned frets one day... maybe if I had a compound radial slide saw. Nobody in the north west UK really takes there instruments into the stores here...shame.

[Tom Drinkwater]

I hope to have good luck with the local stores here. They were impressed with the mini guitars I made for my kids (both of which have a flat fretboard) so I hope to dazzle them with the fanned frets. I am reading a book from a series called Foxfire right now. It is about living simply in the Appalachian Mountains, mainly around Tennessee and West Virginia and was published around 1975. This particular book has a big section about traditional banjos and mountain dulcimers and it is very interesting. I didn't know that prior to 1880 banjos were fretless. What I find even more interesting is that people still play fretless banjo!! Most of the instruments in the book have a non radiused fret board. Very simply constructed by current standard but very elegant non the less. I am intrigued by the use of real hides for the heads and the various types of critters that are used, house cat being a favorite. Even better was the fact that each builder borrowed ideas from each other and mixed and matched until they had a really nice unique instrument. I wonder if our tappers will be in a book some day, being scrutinized by music scholars.

[lactose]

kind of feels a bit space-aged to me
Thanks !

living simply in the Appalachian Mountains
Interesting. I am from southern Ohio which is culturally West Virginia. There is a lot of bluegrass back there. I found out that a guy nearby in WV is making twisted neck acoustics. When I win the lotto I will move back and start selling homemade instruments , after a couple of years of practice. The region has never been wealthy and the move of all the plants and factories overseas has made it even worse the past twenty years. I feel for them.

[Cybaddiction]

there is a great youtube video about fretless gourd banjos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7D9SLI7FwbU

he is quite a character as well...

[Tom Drinkwater]

One of my army buddies is from southern Ohio, Wellston if I remember correctly.

[Cybaddiction]

Hi, just wanted to clarify on that binding point from earlier...the fret slotting should be done before binding is glued in to place else you have to cut the binding edges a little...not ideal.:D

[julien]

A little late answer...

It was mentionned but brobably not highlighted enough.

it's about how easy it is to sand a fretboard flat or radiused. It took me quite a long time to sand my fretboard flat in the direction of the strings, and fortunately I did not have to take care too much about how straight or curved it got in the direction perpendicular to the strings.

So depending on how acurate you want the radius to be, it can be a pretty big ammount of job!

I really love the teflon instrument too ! Really good one!

[Cybaddiction]

If you get a radiused sanding block then it is quite easy to sand a radius in to the board. Half an hour or so I would guess for rosewood (really that is just a guess).

I did an ebony one about 6 months ago that took forever but then I figured I would rough out the shape with a small plane and a belt sander then it was really easy to radius the board as there was a lot of surface area in contact rather than just 2 edges.

[Tom Drinkwater]

I suppose it depends alot on the sand paper you choose. I use the adhesive back 3M sand paper from StewMac. It is pricey buy it cuts incredibly well. I use it to sand metal too. I bet you could sand a 12" radius into maple in about 15 minutes. That is of course taking breaks, never sand for 15 minutes straight unless you are Popeye the Sailor Man.