A clarification on two new web sites

[rjgoos]

I noticed a few days ago that my name is used on a couple of Traktor's recent web sites, which are destined to be discussed (or 'cussed) here or elsewhere:


http://tinyurl.com/3paznl

http://tinyurl.com/3zh8j3


I wanted to give a bit of clarification of a point or two on the materials attributed to me.


1. I made original recordings provided on these sites a relatively long time ago (2004 or 2005), and I posted them on tappistry.org in 2005, a little longer than "a few months back." Not a big deal, other than to say that I hope that I've improved as a musician since then (having only started tapping in 2003). The recordings are a fair representation of where I was, musically, 3-4 years ago.


2. The Megatar 'Eclipse' in the recording, I picked up used on eBay. As I recall, it was languishing for a bid, I pitched in the minimum bid, and won the auction. A month or two after having it, a fellow who buys and sells touchstyle instruments and accessories offered to buy it, so I sold it to him for a profit. I think the instrument had a good "feel" under the fingers for tapping, and sounded nice, but at the end of the day, the neck was a bit wide for my (small) hands:


http://homepage.mac.com/tap6/fingers.jpg

http://homepage.mac.com/tap6/fingers.jpg



3. I suppose that my comments (not quoted exactly, according to my memory) regarding the ergonomics of the Megatar and the Megatar strap could be misinterpreted, so let me explain what I was trying to say. With a Megatar and Traktor's strap, the neck of the instrument is a bit away from the body, and the player is looking at the back of the neck (see picture). This is actually pretty good with regards to the wrists being straight, but...you are looking at the back of the neck. What I was trying to say, was that this sort of arrangement would be problematic for someone playing a 4ths/inverted 5ths tuning, because the left hand changes position often with a 5ths tuning. This sort of arrangement would be less of a problem with Traktor's preferred tuning (parallel 4ths) because the hands change position less often. Edge dots would help.


http://tinyurl.com/3kkatz

http://tinyurl.com/3kkatz


4. Traktor's comments are correct, in that I have no business connection with Mobius Megatar. I have always paid full retail for everything (strings, etc.) that I have purchased from him. I point this fact out, for those who tend to think in terms of conspiracies.

[SteveA]

Wow.
Here's a disclaimer. The words presented in this new testimonial do not ring true. This is utter nonsense. This needless propaganda really bothers me.

Steve Adelson
author, Stickology.... Mel Bay published method book

[rjgoos]

Originally posted by SteveA
The words presented in this new testimonial do not ring true.


Sorry you feel this way. I was a bit surprised to see my name used on these sites, and just wanted to explain the background regarding the recordings, and the comments attributed to me.

[SteveA]

I was talking more about the referred to, newsletter improperganda. The fact that you're associated with it doesn't sit well but that's your choice.
The style of the comments and salesman-like "news" on the link is totally instigative.

[SteveA]

>>I was a bit surprised to see my name used on these sites...and the comments attributed to me.<<


So to clear this up, I assume that unknowingly you approve the use of your words and music, presented as an expert in this matter, as sales promo for the instrument in question.

Steve Adelson

[rpmartino]

I was trying hard to bite my tongue here but this also strikes me as strange. RJ, you are quite gracious about the use of your name, words and music, without your permission, to promote the Megatar. Your words are also used in a somewhat deceptive way... you don't even play one now and ergonomics itself (wide fretboard for your hands) was a factor in not keeping it, yet your comments were used to demonstrate the superior ergonomics of the instrument.

To offer my own perspective, with my small software company Wave Arts permission is requested when we use someone's quote on our website, and SE has always explicitly asked me for permission to use my comments from forums/mailing lists on the Stick site.

There's nothing inherently wrong with marketing your product, or comparing it to the competition (even if my personal experiences as a tapping musician don't jibe with these particular claims of a superior "method", instrument design, ergonomics, and so forth), but the use of testimonial without permission, using competitor's trademarks in your urls and ads, etc. just kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

[arsacane]

I did check the sites and really don't like them...
The 'compare' site reminds me the Microsoft's anti-Linux campaing 'Get The facts'; not very tasty IMHO :-(

It's always delicate to refer to the competition in advertising; it has to be done with taste and/or humour and, personnally I don't see any of that here; I don't think you are making a favour to the megatar with this.

Here is an example of an 'agressive' ad, that remains intelligent, tastefull and funny.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AUlTAqHxcI8



Cheers, Daniel

[arsacane]

Originally posted by rpmartino
just kind of leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I agree.

[Tom Drinkwater]

Hey guys, I really think that this would be resolved better by using the private message function before this blows up. Nothing ever gets solved this way.

[PhoBucket]

There is also a survey link on the site where you can let the site owner know how you think the site could be improved.

[SteveA]

Nothing to solve here Tom. If data is posted publicly then it should be responded to in like manner. The public shouldn't be privy to getting one-sided advice without a rebuttal.
And to this point realize, that the original news story (us vs. them) has a closed comments page.
Steve Adelson

[rjgoos]

Originally posted by SteveA

If data is posted publicly then it should be responded to in like manner.


Steve's right. That's why I started the thread, to at least respond to the parts related to me.

The recordings were honestly made (using the same effects/recording settings on both instruments, etc.), posted on this forum about 3 years ago, and thus have been available for a long time, and nobody ever uttered an objection to them before. So, I didn't object to the recordings being used...they were out there anyway.

Regarding my comments on ergonomics, I offered a clarification here. If my friends here find my comments confusing or unfair, I'll ask Traktor to remove them from his site.

Regarding the rest of it, it's Traktor's site. It does seem that he is using a more aggressive approach.

[SteveA]

>>>Regarding the rest of it, it's Traktor's site. It does seem that he is using a more aggressive approach<<<

Aggressive?
When I see a story on The Chapman Stick and next to this article there's a picture of a Megatar, the adjective "aggressive" wouldn't be my first choice.
And certainly this is not a marketing style that I would want to be associated with.

Steve A

[qbensis]

I looked at the sites right now ...

Have you seen the comparison chart??
http://chapmanstickmegatarcomparison.com/buy-chapman-stick-feature-chart/#more-11

LOL! :D

This can't be serious?!
It's like a comparison strat vs. les paul with categories like...

3 PICKUPS:
strat, yes
les paul NO! :mad:

Designed by Leo Fender:
strat, yes
les paul NO! :mad:

good looking because of availabillity of colored pickguards:
strat, yes
les paul NO! :mad:

etc ...

Sorry, but this has to be a joke?!
Megatars are said to be superior because the tuners are available in gold and because there are optional straplocks available ??? Come on, don't take this too serious.
I don't think that anybody could!:D

[GaryOpenhill]

Originally posted by qbensis
I looked at the sites right now ...

Have you seen the comparison chart??
http://chapmanstickmegatarcomparison.com/buy-chapman-stick-feature-chart/#more-11

LOL! :D

This can't be serious?!
It's like a comparison strat vs. les paul with categories like...

3 PICKUPS:
strat, yes
les paul NO! :mad:

Designed by Leo Fender:
strat, yes
les paul NO! :mad:

good looking because of availabillity of colored pickguards:
strat, yes
les paul NO! :mad:

etc ...

Sorry, but this has to be a joke?!
Megatars are said to be superior because the tuners are available in gold and because there are optional straplocks available ??? Come on, don't take this too serious.
I don't think that anybody could!:D

Yeah that surprised me too. I was thinking about how the list would look if SE made it. Stuff like:
Options if 8, 10 and 12 strings: Stick Yes, Meg no!
Options of 7+5 tunings on the grand: Stick yes, meg no!
Dual adjustable nut: stick yes, meg no!
Graphite body available: stick yes, meg no!
stainless steel frets: stick yes, meg no!
Alto version available: stick yes, meg no!
triangle shaped frets: stick yes, meg no!
Mono switch: stick yes, meg no!
36 inch length: stick yes, meg no!
Was it in "Dune"?: stick yes, meg no!
Can it fly?: stick no, meg no!
Great sound: stick yes, meg You decide!

But the way some of the stickist forum members have been acting have totally turned me off from ever wanting a stick, even though that was the instrument i first tried to get. I don't even read their forum. I still think the Stick is awsome, i do! And i still cant get over the sweetness in many of the vids that SE have posted. But like SteveA said, i don't want to be associated with or support this kind of stuff, no matter what side it comes from.
This costs me to say: Its' bad pr traktor. Turns ppl away. SE still don't get that, but you do, don't you??
Hopefully we'll hear fromt he other side soon.

*regretted some stuff in this post, so i changed it a bit. It happens. :P

[jamsire]

Interesting points - all around.

I'm not sure what to say here.

[TheEclectic]

My guess is that sales are slow and that the coffers are running low. That would explain the feel of these sites.

A good instrument speaks for itself - but only if it has the opportunity to speak. An instrument can not speak thru a website.

If it were me, I would focus my energies on getting instruments into retail stores and guitar shows where people can play them - places where the instrument can speak for itself.

When it comes to musical instruments, it is that tactile sensations that close the sell.

I took a big risk and bought my first used Megatar without ever seeing or touching one becuase it was the only tap instrument i could afford. I had now idea of its quality and feel and there is no website that will ever be able to impart those essential bits of knowledge.

Had a Megatar been available to see and touch and feel and tap at the local Sam Ash or even at a local mom-and-pop shop then I would have purchased one sooner.

I bought my second because I liked the feel of the instrument and I found the design easy to customize. The instruemnt had spoken for itself.

[SteveA]

Seems the thread is moving off in a different direction.
My point was not about the instrument or what you prefer, but the way the builder solicits a customer base.
Emmett Chapman builds a great instrument and uses testimonials (with permission) on his site. The other guy use Emmett's name with a picture of his own instrument and misleading comparison charts.
This is 3 card monte. It's misdirection to the unknowing.

Steve Adelson

[GaryOpenhill]

Originally posted by SteveA
Seems the thread is moving off in a different direction.
My point was not about the instrument or what you prefer, but the way the builder solicits a customer base.
Emmett Chapman builds a great instrument and uses testimonials (with permission) on his site. The other guy use Emmett's name with a picture of his own instrument and misleading comparison charts.
This is 3 card monte. It's misdirection to the unknowing.

Steve Adelson

I think we all understood your point. Lets hear it from "the other guy" now.

[PhoBucket]

Originally posted by GaryOpenhill

Was it in "Dune"?: stick yes, meg no!


LOL :p

Originally posted by GaryOpenhill

But the way SE's PR ppl and some forummembers have been acting in these forums have totally turned me off from ever wanting a stick, even though that was the instrument i first tried to get. I don't even read their forum. I still think the Stick is awsome, i do! And i still cant get over the sweetness in many of the vids that SE have posted. But like SteveA said, i don't want to be associated with or support this kind of stuff, no matter what side it comes from.
This costs me to say: Its' bad pr traktor. Turns ppl away.

I'm with you on this Gary. And I think KRex's thread was actually a very good starting point for the benefits and drawbacks of each instrument. I'd much rather hear this from the player's point of view than the manufacturer's.

When a company tries to pass on it's clearly biased remarks as an unbiased comparison, it is insulting to consumer. That is true in any media, whether it's done through sniping comments on a forum or a "get the facts" propaganda web page.

All of this being said, the masthead does clearly state that this site is sponsored by Voltos/Mobius Megatar, and there is a link on the site to a new Chapman Stick history page on the Megatar site, which IMO, does a better job of giving credit where credit is due that the original history page.

[gpoorman]

This costs me to say: Its' bad pr traktor. Turns ppl away. SE still don't get that, but you do, don't you??

If you're speaking of forum chatter then you are, of course, welcome to your opinion. As far as official websites go, I put together every page of SE's official site personally and sat up many an evening blasting emails out to each and every person quoted on the customer commentary page showing them what was to be posted and asking their permission to post it.

I'm inclined to agree with TheEclectic who saw slow sales and desperation as the motivator here. Especially with SE's trademarks embedded right into the domain name. It's a shame. Some of us were making an honest effort to move past it.

[GaryOpenhill]

Originally posted by gpoorman
If you're speaking of forum chatter then you are, of course, welcome to your opinion. As far as official websites go, I put together every page of SE's official site personally and sat up many an evening blasting emails out to each and every person quoted on the customer commentary page showing them what was to be posted and asking their permission to post it.

I'm inclined to agree with TheEclectic who saw slow sales and desperation as the motivator here. Especially with SE's trademarks embedded right into the domain name. It's a shame. Some of us were making an honest effort to move past it.

Nope, that wasn't it. No need to defend the SE site. It's a good, informative and fair site!

[rjgoos]

Glenn wrote:

> I'm inclined to agree with TheEclectic who saw slow sales and desperation as the motivator here.

You may well be right. An alternative explanation is that the nature of his company is different than it was before. It could be that he has his new shop up to speed now, with substantially greater production capacity than before, and he has the capacity to go after business more aggressively. It's only a guess.


> Some of us were making an honest effort to move past it.

You are right, Glenn, relations are bound to be strained. Maybe I should not have brought up the entire topic, but history suggests that sites like this eventually get discussed, here or elsewhere.

[K Rex]

I'm no lawyer, but it would seem that any sonic material posted onto an internet forum for all to download, left standing for years without any sort of protective mechanism/copyright at all, is open to free distribution and use by the general public.

RJ's original post was made with good intent, as were his music clips years ago. No problem.

Traktor has quite an unconventional way of advertising and distributing his instruments. He always has, and although I suppose this contributed to the lawsuit years back, his aggresive capitalist tendencies have helped him to carve a niche in the biz. Would I do it differently? Probably, but again it seems that the Stick (TM) guys are making this a much bigger issue than it deserves.

And again, I think Traktor is within his legal rights. If he drives us all away by using these aggressive techniques, then he deserves to suffer low sales as a result of his approach. That is the way of capitalism.

My opinion is that Traktor should immediately delete any mention of the Stick (TM) on his website (leaving the keywords in the search engine, naturally) and ignore his competition as if they don't exist. Warr does just that, and they get along just fine, I think. Traktor's ace in the hole was, is, and always will be that he makes a fine instrument which is available at the drop of a hat... something that neither Warr nor Stick (TM) can ever hope to touch with a ten-foot cattle prod.

And again again again again, it really sucks that we can't talk about the merits and pitfalls of the instruments (and instrument manufacturers for that matter) without people getting nasty.

I wish upon a wish upon a faintly shimmering hope that, one day, people will grow up to the point that they realize criticism is not in fact the end of the world, but is a necessary component of the critical process of improvement. It is also a major component of advertising, and thus capitalism in general.

And capitalism is good... at least it was... before the days of John McChurian candidate and Sen. Hussein.... but that's another thread... I'm quite sure that's another thread...

Kev

[gpoorman]

You are right, Glenn, relations are bound to be strained. Maybe I should not have brought up the entire topic, but history suggests that sites like this eventually get discussed, here or elsewhere.

No, I think it was perfectly reasonable for you to bring it up here. Like you said, the discussion was inevitable so you might as well get it out there.

I'm no lawyer either so take that for what it's worth. I also don't feel as though I've made a "big deal" about anything except to clarify that the quotes on the SE pages were cleared for use whether legally necessary or not and that obtaining permission for those quotes was a direct request from Emmett.

I do work for a company (NOT SE) that generally spends it's life on the receiving end of guerilla sales just because we've been out front in our field for as long as we've been a company. On our end, we don't engage in that sort of thing ... well ... because we don't have to. But we do have people who are paid to monitor and keep it honest.

[TheEclectic]

I wish upon a wish upon a faintly shimmering hope that, one day, people will grow up to the point that they realize criticism is not in fact the end of the world, but is a necessary component of the critical process of improvement. It is also a major component of advertising, and thus capitalism in general

Well put. Without constructive criticism how are we to see that which we can not see on our own?

In my profession, architecture, I rely on the feedback of those around me; peers, the client, the engineers, the contractor and the code officials to help me produce a product that is better than one I could produce on my own.

Sometimes it ain't easy to put aside the ego and acknowledge my short comings, but I know that it is necessary to seek out and implement the advice of others in order to produce the best product of which I am capable. And I know that a good project speaks for itself and to a certain extent creates its own advertising.

I think that each tap instrument has its strengths and weaknesses and I hope that they all learn to coexist.

"I'd rather trust a man that doesn’t shout what he's found.
There’s no need to sell when your homeward bound" Genesis, "The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway" CD

[K Rex]

I love that song... one of the best albums ever.

k

[K Rex]

I think the instruments get along just fine... it's the loyalty and deference to the instruments that gets us in trouble.

K

[gpoorman]

It is also a major component of advertising, and thus capitalism in general.
Yes I would tend to agree with that. As I had mentioned, my day job sees us on the receiving end of all kinds of tactics and, truth be told, I tend to take the tact that it's when they stop singling your company out by name that you have something to worry about.

On the flip side though, I don't believe I've ever seen any individual or organization using these kinds of sales tactics out one side and then running an open forum promoting peace, unity and mutual admiration out of the other. That strikes me as a bit disingenuous.

In the end we all have to eat I suppose.

[Tom Drinkwater]

I had to laugh the other day at the drug store. I was buying pedialyte for one of my kids who was sick and getting dehydrated. I grabbed the drug stores brand and on the back of the bottle was a comparison chart with the actual Pedialyte brand product on the back. It didn't bother me one bit so it made me think. I realized that we get our collective panties in a bunch because we all have had personal dealings with the very individuals that make our instruments and have a lot of money invested and we love our instruments. Who cares if Rite Aid wants to have a comparison chart with the leading brand. Who cares if Kleenex or Puffs says the other brand doesn't wipe as much snot and makes your nose red. Does anyone here know who made there Dell computer. I bet it wasn't Micheal Dell. Who made your tires and why do you trust that they'll transport you and your family safely. All I'm saying is that it is totally ridiculous for us to care about a website that doesn't impact us at all in any way shape or form because it compares two instruments. I don't see anything sinister here. If anyone does think that the websites are a travesty, take a look around next time you go shopping or when you watch TV. If Stick doesn't want the free advertising then they can take it up with Traktor.

[SteveA]

>>All I'm saying is that it is totally ridiculous for us to care about a website that doesn't impact us at all in any way shape or form because it compares two instruments.<<


Perhaps this situation does not impact Tom or Steve, but the web browser who is curious and has no foundation to base his opinions is absolutely influenced by these sort of comparisons which as previously illustrated, are simply not accurate.



>>> If anyone does think that the websites are a travesty, take a look around next time you go shopping or when you watch TV.<<


So if large media puts up with and even promotes such promo bashing, then this sanctions such actions in this little music community?


>> If Stick doesn't want the free advertising then they can take it up with Traktor.<<

Free advertising? And I suppose Barry Bonds' press is promoting baseball?

I hope your child is feeling better. Have a happy Father's Day.

Steve A

[GaryOpenhill]

Originally posted by Tom Drinkwater
I had to laugh the other day at the drug store. I was buying pedialyte for one of my kids who was sick and getting dehydrated. I grabbed the drug stores brand and on the back of the bottle was a comparison chart with the actual Pedialyte brand product on the back. It didn't bother me one bit so it made me think. I realized that we get our collective panties in a bunch because we all have had personal dealings with the very individuals that make our instruments and have a lot of money invested and we love our instruments. Who cares if Rite Aid wants to have a comparison chart with the leading brand. Who cares if Kleenex or Puffs says the other brand doesn't wipe as much snot and makes your nose red. Does anyone here know who made there Dell computer. I bet it wasn't Micheal Dell. Who made your tires and why do you trust that they'll transport you and your family safely. All I'm saying is that it is totally ridiculous for us to care about a website that doesn't impact us at all in any way shape or form because it compares two instruments. I don't see anything sinister here. If anyone does think that the websites are a travesty, take a look around next time you go shopping or when you watch TV. If Stick doesn't want the free advertising then they can take it up with Traktor.

I think one reason why i react so much to this kind of tactic is that is not only is regarded as bad taste over here where i live, but it is actually totally illegal. Any company that use other brands in any way to sell their own products have signed their own death contract. They will be sued and convitcted so bad that they wish they never ever thought about doing business.
I guess this moral stand in european countries is something US companies should keep in mind if they want international customers.

[Tom Drinkwater]

Thanks for the reply Steve. My one child is better and now the other one is sick. Thanks for the "Happy Fathers Day". Likewise if you have kids. There was nothing about family in your bio on your site, sorry.
I am not defending the websites. When I moved back to Maine from Northern Virginia it was to get away from all the political BS. My wife and I opted not to get cable TV to shield our kids and ourselves from the constant barrage of corporate propoganda. I quit my retail management job and started my own company because I was tired of compromising my own values so that greedy people could build there fortunes on the backs of their underpaid/overworked employees. My whole point is that while some of us might not like doing business like this, there is no use debating it. It's all around us everywhere we look. We are a small community and that enables you to go right to the top. Who do you talk to if Sears or Lowes does you wrong? Who the heck even runs Sears and Lowes? This is a rare opportunity to have a chat with the guy responsible and air your grievances. Have you contacted Traktor about his websites?
I am sending you a private message regarding something much more interesting than this topic.

[Tom Drinkwater]

[quote]I think one reason why i react so much to this kind of tactic is that is not only is regarded as bad taste over here where i live, but it is actually totally illegal. Any company that use other brands in any way to sell their own products have signed their own death contract. They will be sued and convitcted so bad that they wish they never ever thought about doing business.
I guess this moral stand in european countries is something US companies should keep in mind if they want international customers.[/qoute]
Gary, we're going start drilling for oil in Alaska and probably kill off the polar bears in the process to lower the cost of gasoline a few cents so that we can keep on driving our huge SUVs instead of adjusting our lifestyles and driving habits just a little bit. I don't think we are going to adopt any moral codes of business any time soon.

[GaryOpenhill]

Originally posted by Tom Drinkwater
Gary, we're going start drilling for oil in Alaska and probably kill off the polar bears in the process to lower the cost of gasoline a few cents so that we can keep on driving our huge SUVs instead of adjusting our lifestyles and driving habits just a little bit. I don't think we are going to adopt any moral codes of business any time soon.

Hehe. Well, what you do in your own country is your business!
We just feel that using unfair comparisment charts is so low that we can't trust those who do it. So we won't buy stuff from them. It's wise to concider that for any little company that sells products worldwide, isnt it?

[lactose]

I quit my retail management job and started my own company because I was tired of compromising my own values
Wow so many people think of this. You actually did it.

[GaryOpenhill]

Taktor, won't you pls comment?

[traktor]

Thank you all for your ideas, and some of them have proven useful. I have revised the 'gold and black' tuners, having seen that the way I'd presented it was silly.

I also thought that 'Stick is in Dune, and Megatar isn't' was very funny.

I'd encourage everyone who finds this important to go out and buy a Stick right away so they can have an instrument like the one in Dune. You'll have to get a carved gourd from an old sitar to make your stick into a 'baliset,' but then you will be happy. We will all be happy.

The 'quote without permission' is overblown. (Though I have tweaked the page to take out some comments where I'd quoted wrong.) This was just a misunderstanding between RJ and myself. If he's happy, I reckon nobody else need worry.

Naturally, I don't run my marketing as a democracy, I do my own experiments to determine what's true, and generally I keep my own counsel. In these things, I'm much like Emmett. Or like anyone responsible for running a company.

The compare website is an experiment. I've observed that in many cases when people compare what you get for your money, they choose Megatar.

It's regrettable that comparing the two should provoke hostility from the Stick method-book writer and the Stick webmaster, but there you are.

I would urge them to go out immediately and create a comparison site of their own. They can name us by name. They can tell all the things where a Stick is better. I think they should do it right away. It's a good idea.

Now, as regards US comparative advertising, most of you are too young to remember, but I remember ...

It was in the mid-fifties. The main car-rental company was Hertz, and the Avis car-rental company hired a new advertising agency. Soon, in the magazines of the times, full page ads appeared.

There Avis compared themselves with Hertz. And their motto was --

"We're only number two. We try harder."

-- Traktor


PS: Although the comparison site was not designed for a forum like this, where everyone already has their instrument (and their camp), I do want the facts on the comparison site to be accurate.

But since it has been brought up, this is a good opportunity to improve the site --REWARD!

I am here offering a $20 REWARD to the first person to report to me (privately) any Error of Fact on the comparison website. Not your opinion about something or a way you'd prefer things worded, of course, but an actual fact that I've got wrong. Like for example, if the Stick company regularly offers customization with your choice of chrome, gold, or black tuners and knobs; or if you can get a Stick built to order and shipped in three weeks, I want to know so I can correct any error of fact.

And to any lucky winner, if you prefer, I will send you a free set of strings -- tuned either for BassBottom or Inverted-Fifths like a Chapman Stick -- sent to your door. That's worth $27 plus shipping cost. (Or, if you compare them to the other company's strings it's worth $36 plus shipping cost.) So it might be worth over $40 to you!Because if a comparison site is to be useful, then the facts should be accurate, right?

Anyone interested in winning $20 or a free set of strings, go find one or more Errors of Fact on the Chapman Stick and Megatar Comparison Website (http://chapmanstickmegatarcomparison.com/), and report to me privately.

(Some folks might want to use differences of opinion to slime this forum. No $20 or strings for points argued publicly here, please. Only the first to let me know privately gets the reward.)

Thank you all for sharing your ideas. I appreciate your interest in helping me to do the best job possible of creating more music in the world.

[SteveA]

>>>It's regrettable that comparing the two should provoke hostility from the Stick method-book writer and the Stick webmaster, but there you are.<<<

There we are? Where?
Traktor, lest we not forget the whole crux of my post. You conveniently omit certain aspects. It wasn't just the comparison chart, but tactics like giving a Stick history with a picture of your instrument. Is this a sales technique?
As a point of boring fact, yes I am the author of that book called "Stickology..." which is also the name of my CD which is also the catch phrase you were "coincidentally" going to use for your own marketing before I asked you not to. I appreciate your change of mind.
Glenn likewise brought up some less than above board marketing
concepts you employ. No need to repeat the details.

You asked for a private message? I emailed you twice, and there was zero response.
No need to compare. Please recall the time you asked me to try your instrument at NAMM (roughly 6-7 years ago?). If you don't recall, the results, then I would suggest you email me directly.
Steve A

[SteveA]

>>Anyone interested in winning $20 or a free set of strings, go find one or more Errors of Fact <<<

I just looked at this chart again. More ridiculous the second time around. i.e. "Standard Fourths tuning" is an advantage?
Etc., etc.
Hey, just send $20 to the Red Cross in Iowa. They don't need strings

Steve A

[traktor]

Hi, Steve,

Well, I just won $5. I bet my shop manager that you'd show up to call names.

Now what were we talking about ... marketing tactics?

I tell you what, if you want to debate this, let's do it over on Stickwire. Go post the thread there, OK?

Then everyone will know that you're not just sliming someone else's forum.

-- Traktor

PS: Steve, email me privately if you need some help understanding the difference between a fact and an opinion. Plus, you're not reading carefully. Points debated here get no reward. Nothing for you Steve.

[SteveA]

>>Steve, email me privately if you need some help understanding the difference between a fact and an opinion.<<

Fact: you won $5. Yeah.

Fact: I'm not sliming anyone's sight. I'm challenging you're marketing techniques, which you still haven't addressed.

Fact: The aforementioned "Stickology..." story is true

Fact: There's more, but everyone reading is bored.
I bid you adieu

Steve A

[traktor]

Well, Steve,


I've put my money where my mouth is.

And what I mostly see here from you is ... mouth.


So ... adieu to you.

[SteveA]

Very eloquent Traktor. You're slipping.

Steve A

[K Rex]

I'm sure this thread will probably be construed as yet another conspiracy to denegrate Stick Enterprises (TM), The Stick (TM), and Stick (TM) players all over the world... not much I can do about that. It does seem, however, that Traktor is not doing anything *wrong* by testing/employing bad marketing strategies.

Do I think Traktor could use a new web designer? Yes. I can and will make a recommendation if he so desires. Do I think he should ignore Stick Enterprises (TM)? Yep. I've already said so. Warr does it. Class act.

Perhaps if Steve or anyone else could demonstrate how Traktor's marketing strategy is having a detrimental effect on SE's sales I could be persuaded to agree with them. Hell, I might even start a campaign to stop such abusive behavior.

Until then, I will defy the increasingly popular practice of using this forum to air the belief that the most popular tapping instrument company of all time is, in fact, a victim which is suffering. Poor SE.

Traktor, maybe you should just replace every mention of the Stick (TM) on your site with the words "leading brand", or "Brand A". Would that traditional tactic be more in line with Steve's professional marketing idiom?

Kev

[K Rex]

Steve, I'm not bored, and I would enthusiastically side with you if you could demonstrate either factual errors on his site or the damage his site has done to either you or SE.

I don't have much money, but such info would be relevant to this thread.

Kev

[jamsire]

At the end of the day:

everything we play is just a piece of wood we took from nature.

and nature has been mad for a while.

talk about how to play better.

sick of this.

[K Rex]

Me too, Ernie. Arguing about BS reigns here.

It always, always, always starts with some Stick guy who has a problem with Traktor. Why?

I think ignoring them is key.

Then we can talk about how bad-ass all the Stick players are.

k

[SteveA]

>>>Perhaps if Steve or anyone else could demonstrate how Traktor's marketing strategy is having a detrimental effect on SE's sales I could be persuaded to agree with them. Hell, I might even start a campaign to stop such abusive behavior.<<<


Steve here (yes but of course). Please read all the previous posts about Traktor's tactics and how he employs misdirection. If you're still not clear, email me directly. Let's not bore all the readers with continuation of back and forth.

>>>Until then, I will defy the increasingly popular practice of using this forum to air the belief that the most popular tapping instrument company of all time is, in fact, a victim which is suffering. Poor SE.<<

So off base.

>>>Traktor, maybe you should just replace every mention of the Stick (TM) on your site with the words "leading brand", or "Brand A". Would that traditional tactic be more in line with Steve's professional marketing idiom?<<<

This is not about Steve's marketing idiom. It's about putting out incorrect information. Again, just read all the previous posts (not just mine).
Contrary to the way this thread is being redirected, this is not Traktor or Steve bashing. As a player and teacher, I simply hope the prospective instrument buyer does not get mislead with misinformation.

Steve A

[SteveA]

Well if it's cool with Traktor, I can be done with the public dialogue and we can make it private.

And a big shout out to Ernie. He did a great job earlier today hosting and producing 2 TV shows that featured my duo with David Langlois.
Thanks Ernie

Steve A

[K Rex]

Ernie is still the man.

I don't think I'm off base at all. I've witnessed more than one Stick player complain about completely legal marketing tactics and opinion-based criticism. I think THAT is off base.

Words like "utter nonsense", "needless propaganda", and "instigative" are off-base. Telling RJ that his affiliation with Traktor's site doesn't "sit well" is off-base.

I've read all your posts as you requested. Where is the data which shows factual errors on Traktor's site? The closest thing I've seen is that you question Fourths as being an advantage.

Waiting.

K

[SteveA]

K Rex, out of respect to the others, I indeed sent you a private message. Your inbox was full. Hopefully you'll eventually read it.
Steve

[K Rex]

Inbox is clear now, Steve. Did you try to send another PM?

K

[SteveA]

check your box in a minute

[gpoorman]

It's regrettable that comparing the two should provoke hostility from the Stick method-book writer and the Stick webmaster, but there you are.
Was I hostile? I reread my two posts and just don't see it. I believe I defended my work when it looked like I was accused of using quotes out of turn (I am allowed to do that here yes?). Turns out that I wasn't accused of any such thing so that was a moot point. Then I believe I called you disengenious for using rental car sales tactics out one side and then running a "peace and unity" forum out the other (which is true). But hostile? Sorry ... I just don't see it.

I would urge them to go out immediately and create a comparison site of their own.
I'm sure you would.

Anyone interested in winning $20 or a free set of strings, go find one or more Errors of Fact on the ...
Since you asked ...

Assembled to customer specifications.

SE customers specify the material, the tuning heads, the tuning itself (yes ... even all 4ths), the pickups, the inlays ... I'm sure I'm forgetting something.

You can keep my $20. I don't need it.

[gpoorman]

As a matter of fact, I believe I drew similarities back to life in my own company calling this form of advertising life in a capitalist society.

Very hostile indeed.

[K Rex]

Traktor,

Can you explain why it states in your comparison chart that Grand Chapman Sticks are not assembled to the customer's specifications? This would seem to warrant an immediate $20 payout, and you can send it directly to me if Mr. Poorman doesn't want it.

Of course, there could be a good reason for that site stating such a thing, although I don't yet know what it is.

Kev

[K Rex]

Mr. Poorman,

Although Traktor's sales tactics are skewed at best, I don't believe he ever made the claim that this forum existed for the sake of "peace and unity". That certainly isn't why I am here... I'm here to talk about music and musical instruments, in spite of the fact that arguing seems to be favored over substance.

Kev

P.S. Are capitalist societies bad, then?

[SteveA]

>>I would enthusiastically side with you if you could demonstrate either factual errors on his site<<<


I sent you a private email with this info as well. The original PM had more. I also tried once again to clarify my statements as going beyong the comparison chart.
So concerning your above statement, what say you.

Steve A

[gpoorman]

Are capitalist societies bad, then?
I don't think that was my point ... no. The point was that Traktor said I was "hostile" when I believe I alluded to there being nothing technically "wrong" with these kinds of tactics stating that I see them every day. I even went on to suggest that you know you're doing something right when they single you out by name.

Apparently we all just read what we want to hear though since first I was "hostile" and now I'm "anti-American" :)

[traktor]

Hello Glenn Poorman,

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings by referring to you as hostile. I must have been mistaken when you were describing me in those terms. You, the Stick Enterprises webmaster, were probably just being friendly and helpful to the competition. Both times. And I misread it.

(Just yanking your chain, Glenn, but perhaps you are less even-minded than you imagine.)

And on this note, Glenn ... what is wrong with a comparison of features, like the rental cars do?

What is so mysterious about tapping instruments that things should .... remain unsaid. ("Some things there be that man was not meant to know, matey.")

Here is what I say to you, Glenn -- Oh. poo poo, Glenn! Oh, poo poo!

And in other news ...

(#1) Thank you for the information about the Chapman folks custom-assembling instrument to buyer specifications. I did not know that.

I have immediately updated the Feature Comparison Chart (http://chapmanstickmegatarcomparison.com/buy-chapman-stick-feature-chart/) so that buyers will know they can get custom-built instruments from Emmett and crew, as you describe.

(I was never offered any of these options on the three occasions when I bought Sticks from them in the past, and so remained unaware that this service was available. Maybe it's a new service, in which case I offer congratulations! This is good for instrument buyers!)

Thank you for pointing this out so I can improve the benefit of the Feature Comparison Chart (http://chapmanstickmegatarcomparison.com/buy-chapman-stick-feature-chart/). Visitors will now be better able to evaluate the relative merits and value of the two instruments.

(#2) It is very generous of you! I have mailed a $20 contribution in your name to Best Friends Animal Society (http://www.bestfriends.org/).

This is probably the very best animal rescue organization in the United States. They're located in Utah, near the Grand Canyon, and on behalf of myself, new instrument buyers, and many thousands of dogs and cats, we thank you.

[rpmartino]

Some thoughts on the chart:

Simple Fourths-Tuning Standard? A new Stick can be ordered with any tuning at no extra charge (like mine is set up in mirrored 4ths).

Tone Controls - the ACTV-2 and PASV-4 do indeed have tone controls

Customize: Bartolini Pickups Available - in the past SE offered a Bartolini/Lace pickup option (this was offered to me in the mid 90s, but I'm not sure if it's still available).

Customize Tuners, Knobs, Straplocks? - there is a choice of Black, Chrome and Grey tuners on a Stick.

Customize: Edgedots available for easy navigation? - linear markers inherently act as edge markers since they extend to the edges of the fretboard. Since the Stick fretboard tilts into view (IMO an advantage over traditional guitar designs), this is of negligible benefit on the Stick anyways, the fretboard is much easier to see.

Assembled to Your Specification? - This seems kind of customizable: http://www.stick.com/instruments/grand/options/
In addition, in the past SE has offered to make a Stick of any wood blank sent to them, as well as modifying inlays (I will eventually have white strips embedded in my black linear markers). They can also send a blank to an inlay artist for further custom work.

[K Rex]

Steve,

You sent me TWO PMs, one which contained one fact and one which apparently contained many other facts, which I did not receive. Sorry. I'm a bit confused why you opted to do this via PM in the first place. In fact, this entire thread could have been three pages shorter had you merely stated the factual data in your possession instead of resorting to accusatory words like "instigative" and (perhaps unintentionally) putting down RJ, who is probably very sorry he posted in the first place.

In any case, it seems logical that these facts should be in the public realm (i.e. this thread) instead of on someone's private inbox. I'm glad someone finally decided to post it.

It's good to give people the benefit of the doubt, and if someone is being... well... a poo... it's a good idea (for me, anyway) to call him on it.

In this instance, the learned lesson belongs squarely to Traktor, who probably should have thought to investigate his competition's ACTUAL PRODUCT SPECIFICATIONS instead of posting them in the public realm before he knew what they were.

That is not to say that Traktor was doing it to INSTIGATE something (which is, as I said, an OFF-BASE accusation), but that he is in dire need of going back to the drawing board where his various websites are concerned.

Is my observation of and deference to the truth entusiastic enough, Steve?

Kev

[K Rex]

Did I call you "anti-American", then?

K

[SteveA]

>>Is my observation<<

K Rex, your observations and responses simply put, have confrontational overtones. Again, my posts were about Traktor's bait and switch, misdirection techniques. They've been exposed by quite a few readers on this thread. You refuse to see it. You sent me a post challenging facts (as you said toward a response, "waiting"). You were presented with more than one answer and yet you still stick by your guns.
You say a few of us Stick Guys come here to make trouble.
Contrarily, my positive contributions through teaching, factual information, recorded music, and literature are well documented.
Presenting the truth is part of this. You have your truth. Enjoy it.

Steve A

BTW- those in the LI area, hope to se you at tonight's gig and if you can't make it, tune into Cablevision Ch. 20 at 10:30 pm for a half hour trio Stick-Tet set.
Outta' here

[jamsire]

KRex - clear your box - myspace me

RPMartino - myspace me

Going somewhere else for a while.

Someone let me know when the Mac v. Pc, McDonald's v. Burger King, Old girlfriends v. Ex-wives debate is over.

Gonna go shower first. Too much dirt.

1st time in what 6-7 years?

hmph.

[traktor]

Thank you Robb Martino.

So let me get your thoughts about the site correct ...
Originally posted by rpmartino
Simple Fourths-Tuning Standard? A new Stick can be ordered with any tuning at no extra charge (like mine is set up in mirrored 4ths).So if I understand you correctly, the Simple Fourths-Tuning is available, and that's swell, but it is not standard, and so the Feature Chart is correct. Right?


Originally posted by rpmartino
Tone Controls - the ACTV-2 and PASV-4 do indeed have tone controls.So if I understand you correctly, some optional pickups have tone controls, and that's swell, but the standard instruments do not, and so the Feature Chart is correct. Right?

Originally posted by rpmartino
Customize: Bartolini Pickups Available - in the past SE offered a Bartolini/Lace pickup option (this was offered to me in the mid 90s, but I'm not sure if it's still available).So if I understand you correctly, some instruments in the past may have had some Bartolini pickups, and that's swell, but current instruments do not offer this option, as far as you know, and so the Feature Chart is correct. Right?

Originally posted by rpmartino
Customize Tuners, Knobs, Straplocks? - there is a choice of Black, Chrome and Grey tuners on a Stick.So if I understand you correctly, some instruments have a choice of black and chrome and grey, and that's swell, but their instruments do not offer gold, nor alternate knobs, nor straplocks for customization, and so the Feature Chart is correct. Right?

Originally posted by rpmartino
Customize: Edgedots available for easy navigation? - linear markers inherently act as edge markers since they extend to the edges of the fretboard. Since the Stick fretboard tilts into view (IMO an advantage over traditional guitar designs), this is of negligible benefit on the Stick anyways, the fretboard is much easier to see.So if I understand you correctly, Stick instruments do not offer edgedots, and so the Feature Chart is correct. Right?

Originally posted by rpmartino
Assembled to Your Specification? - This seems kind of customizable: http://www.stick.com/instruments/grand/options/
In addition, in the past SE has offered to make a Stick of any wood blank sent to them, as well as modifying inlays (I will eventually have white strips embedded in my black linear markers). They can also send a blank to an inlay artist for further custom work. Actually I have learned from Glenn Poorman that Stick will customize any instrument for any buyer, if I understand Glenn correctly, and I have already updated the website to show this.

Robb, as always, your thoughts and insights are interesting and perceptive, and as best I can determine from what you say, when we stick accurately to the stated facts, it would appear that you have confirmed the literal accuracy of the statements on the Feature Comparison Chart (http://chapmanstickmegatarcomparison.com/buy-chapman-stick-feature-chart/), except for the one error I have already corrected.

Thank you for your ideas. You see, the Stick guys should put up a comparison chart of their own. They have many, many wonderful features that many people do not know about.

---
REVISION: I think it's worth posting that Stick can customize tuners. It might be important to somebody. And I thought of a way to do it. I've modified the site to have customize tuners by itself, so people will know they can get that on a Megatar or a Stick. I don't know how big a point that is. But doing it this way communicates more clearly and accurately. Thanks for calling this to my attention, Robb.

[traktor]

Originally posted by K Rex
... Traktor, who probably should have thought to investigate his competition's ACTUAL PRODUCT SPECIFICATIONS instead of posting them in the public realm .... Hi, K. Rex,

Why would you think I didn't investigate before posting?

Of course I did. In fact, some of my investigation was done by surveying people who'd recently bought. You might have noticed this Tappistry thread (http://www.tappistry.org/forum/showthread.php?postid=10216#post10216).

I don't just make stuff up.

That is why I think you will find the statements in the Feature Comparison Chart (http://chapmanstickmegatarcomparison.com/buy-chapman-stick-feature-chart/) to be literally and exactly accurate. Because I sought out the facts.

Am I perfect? Not hardly. But so far, it seems to be holding up very well.

And does the Feature Comparision Chart (http://chapmanstickmegatarcomparison.com/buy-chapman-stick-feature-chart/) please everyone? Is it worded the way every competitor would like? Not hardly.

But of course I've made every effort to be accurate, and I'm baffled why you would think I didn't. Perhaps you didn't look at the details, I don't know.

In any event, I'm putting my money where my mouth is.

There's a $20 REWARD for anybody who can report to me (privately) any Error of Fact on the Feature Comparison Chart (http://chapmanstickmegatarcomparison.com/buy-chapman-stick-feature-chart/).

Of course, some will decline to report privately. Perhaps their purpose is something other than correcting the facts and collecting $20. That's putting your mouth where your mouth is. Kind of having a lot of mouth, and little more.

(Robb, I specifically exempt you from these criticisms. You've always been level-headed and fair, and your comments made in the spirit of truth and understanding.)

Who will collect $20?

Nobody?

Is it a tempest in a teapot?

Meaningless flapdoodle?

Grousing in the gorsebush?

Phooey.

[traktor]

So, RJ,

What have you learned?

-- Traktor

[traktor]

So, Geir,

What have you learned?

-- Traktor

[K Rex]

Steve,

I'm sorry you feel this way. If I recall, the infamous New York Seminar thread didn't begin with me, nor did it begin with Greg Howard, it began with you. Traktor then sent you a reminder to tone down confrontational rhetoric on this forum. It seems ironic that you accuse me of being confrontational seeing as this very thread turned direction when you became accusatory.

However, if I seem confrontational it might be because I don't like seeing people put down on a forum that's supposed to be about music, even if "MOBIUS MEGATAR GUY A" is misrepresenting "STICK GUY B" in one way or another. Like I told "STICK GUY C" a few months back, this sort of poo-flinging doesn't belong on a music forum. As long as I don't take the route that Jamsire just took and leave in disgust, I will defend logic and etiquette when I see either being violated. You have done both by

1) implying that RJ has done something wrong by being affiliated with "MOBIUS MEGATAR GUY A", despite not making any effort to BE affiliated.

2) using inflammatory rhetoric to insinuate that Traktor is "instigating" trouble with SE (a company which once sued him) instead of politely showing us all the TRUTH which is part of your positive contribution to this forum by revealing relevant data.

Steve, how am I "sticking to my guns"? I believe I called it as I saw it: Traktor posted untrue and inaccurate information, and needs to seriously consider a new marketing strategy. Perhaps you need to go back and read what I wrote? Should I call Traktor bad names? Send you a PM to grovel and ask your forgiveness? I don't care for that, as this thread isn't about me, it's about Traktor and another one of his websites (deja vu).

You have proven that the information is inaccurate and misleading. Are you now going to prove he is posting these things in order to "instigate" you? Good luck with that and, in the end, who cares? Are you having trouble selling your Stick?

Just as I never called Glenn "anti-American", I never said that "Stick guys are coming here to make trouble". You can judge for yourself who has made trouble on this forum, and I don't think you can say it's been me.

Have a good day.

K

[traktor]

Originally posted by SteveA
>> ... my posts were about Traktor's bait and switch, misdirection techniques. ... No, they aren't.

You're just sliming the forum and calling me names.

Poor behavior.

[traktor]

Originally posted by K Rex
(speaking to Steve) You have proven that the information is inaccurate and misleading. Steve has "proven" nothing at all. Just vague accusations and dark innuendo.

Originally posted by K Rex
Traktor posted untrue and inaccurate information, and needs to seriously consider a new marketing strategy.

Where? What's untrue? What's inaccurate? What are you talking about?

[K Rex]

Traktor,

The information is inaccurate, and you've admitted that it was inaccurate. People can be mislead by inaccurate information.

That is what I'm talking about.

Kev

[SteveA]

>>I'm sorry you feel this way. If I recall, the infamous New York Seminar thread didn't begin with me, nor did it begin with Greg Howard, it began with you.<<

Saw this post on the way out to the gig.
To set you straight, you're accusation is again absolutely false. Absolutey.
Have a nice day.

As far as Traktor's post, you've read the answers.
Man, Traktor, you seem a bit flusterred.

To both of you, there's no need for this. It takes up too much time. You can enjoy your defensive stands, question criticism as slime and stay the course. Marketing at its finest.
I will take my constructive comments and contributions elsewhere.
It's the first day of summer. Enjoy

Steve A

[traktor]

Could you be specific?

I've been corrected that Stick does in fact custom-build any instrument for any buyer, according to Glenn Poorman, and I have corrected the site.

Is that what you're talking about?

If so, you're right. Mea culpa.

However, I've immediately made a correction about that. It's not something to cause me to "need to seriously consider a new marketing strategy."

If there's anything else, let me know.

(Privately, and I will send you $20, or donate to your favorite charity.)

[traktor]

Originally posted by SteveA
>Traktor, you seem a bit flusterred.
By golly, you're right.

Bugs me to say it.

This is just too dumb.

I'm going to go soak in a tub of hot water. I need a shave, too. You know, important stuff.

Sorry you don't like the comparison site. Others seem to find it useful.

Whether it stands the test of time, long term ... don't know yet. But that won't be determined by it's popularity with the competition.

Well, actually, maybe squawking from the competition is a good sign.

Perhaps the shoe fits, and pinches the toes.

[rpmartino]

Originally posted by traktor
Thank you Robb Martino.
Rob has one "b", thanks. ;)
So let me get your thoughts about the site correct ...
So if I understand you correctly, the Simple Fourths-Tuning is available, and that's swell, but it is not standard, and so the Feature Chart is correct. Right?
I don't think there is "one" standard Stick tuning. There are mostly varieties of the bass in 5ths, melody in 4ths tuning, but in fact bass in 4ths is now also offered as a "standard":

http://www.stick.com/instruments/tunings/12/mir4_66/

So if I understand you correctly, some optional pickups have tone controls, and that's swell, but the standard instruments do not, and so the Feature Chart is correct. Right?
Hmm, well maybe it needs to be clear what actually is being compared. If you are limiting it to a standard TrueTapper Eclipse vs. a Grand Stick with a Stickup (the pickup isn't mentioned), then indeed the chart is correct. However, if you are then going to add the customizable items (Bartolini pickups, etc.) then it seems you aren't really comparing the standard instruments anymore?
So if I understand you correctly, some instruments in the past may have had some Bartolini pickups, and that's swell, but current instruments do not offer this option, as far as you know, and so the Feature Chart is correct. Right?
I was offered this pickup even when it wasn't a standard option at the time. So I don't know if it's still possible. My point was, there are sometimes customization possibilities that aren't listed on the Stick site and indeed I had the option of Bartolinis on my Stick at one time. But for the sake of this discussion I'm willing to concede the point.
So if I understand you correctly, some instruments have a choice of black and chrome and grey, and that's swell, but their instruments do not offer gold, nor alternate knobs, nor straplocks for customization, and so the Feature Chart is correct. Right?
Not really. It only takes one item to make the whole assertion false. Perhaps it makes more sense to break the tuners into a separate category than the straplocks and alternate knobs if you wish to compare the items. The chart implies that Stick tuners can't be customized when in fact they can.
So if I understand you correctly, Stick instruments do not offer edgedots, and so the Feature Chart is correct. Right?
My point was that linear markers are actually end dots as well (or provide the identical function). There is literally a marker on the side of the fretboard. Maybe then it's an "edge square" rather than a "dot", but doesn't it still render the comparison moot?
Robb, as always, your thoughts and insights are interesting and perceptive, and as best I can determine from what you say, when we stick accurately to the stated facts, it would appear that you have confirmed the literal accuracy of the statements on the Feature Comparison Chart (http://chapmanstickmegatarcomparison.com/buy-chapman-stick-feature-chart/), except for the one error I have already corrected.
Don't know if any of the above items I mentioned make a difference.
Thank you for your ideas. You see, the Stick guys should put up a comparison chart of their own. They have many, many wonderful features that many people do not know about.
I don't so much take issue with the validity or falsehood of "facts" in the chart, it's just that players with even a minimal level of experience will realize the chart comes across as more of a marketing "gimmick" then actually presenting useful information. If the narrower width of a Stick does not necessitate two truss rods then that item of comparison is not useful. A Stick doesn't use a conventional strap so a customizable straplock comparison is not useful. Fanned frets only make sense if you use a parallel tuning, so it's a moot point when using a mirrored tuning that the majority of solo players prefer. If a Stick by ergonomic design is tilted into view so that the fretboard is clearly visable, then the edge dot comparison is not useful. Etc etc.

I just think it's far more useful to promote the musicians and music of the instrument (the videos by Jan Laurenz and Dino Haak being fine examples) than trying to use the Chapman name/legacy/brand to attract attention (i.e. Stick articles, using Stick trademarks in url and google ads, etc.), only to steer in another direction. I think that's the thing that comes across to some as a "bait and switch". Not only does it potentially get into a murky legal area (I've had a bit of personal experience with Google ads and competitor trademark issues for example), it establishes a certain reputation for Mobius that is probably not desirable.

By way of comparison, just by the simple act of me putting up rough homemade Stick videos of my music, I often get comments from folks who then become interested in getting a Stick, and I don't even get paid. :) As Gary and others alluded to, there are certain marketing strategies that as a whole seem to be a turn off. Actual music is a far more powerful and influential indicator of an instrument's worth than feature by feature comparisons that are oftentimes irrelevant.

[traktor]

Hi, Rob,

I'm sorry. I thought your name had two b's in it.

Oddly enough, I rethought the tuners thing, and I was just making a revision on my last post. I've actually moved 'tuners' into its own category, so that I can say yes to Megatar and yes to Stick, since that's what's true.

The interpretation was open. I wrote it meaning 'tuners, knobs, and straplocks.' But in the English language, a comma separated list can also be read as 'tuners, knobs, or straplocks.'

So it could be read either way.

Now, with the modification, the chart is clear.

Customize tuners?
Megatar yes, Stick yes

While I don't think this is an Error of Fact, it's a fact that the revision is more clear.

You know, though, as Steve said, I've found this process flustering, it's actually improved the page, and I thank all of you who, rightly or rudely, have suggested changes.

[K Rex]

Bye, Steve!

k

[GaryOpenhill]

Originally posted by traktor


You know, though, as Steve said, I've found this process flustering, it's actually improved the page, and I thank all of you who, rightly or rudely, have suggested changes.

The comparisment chart is a turn of for customers because it is unfair to the stick, IMO. And it is ovious for anyone that goes to the se site and read about the stick instruments there. It intentionally doesn't mention the cool improvements, inventions and features that the stick have, and the megatar don't.... like the stainless steel diamond shapes frets, the highly adjustable nut, the 36inch sale length, the material available like graphite or bamboo, the cool fretmarkers, string setups (like 7+5) and strings supply for any tuning and on and on. You should add all these to your list to makie it fair.

Traktor, you are promoting a hostile free zone for all tappers in this forum, at least thats what it seems. But when you at the same time experiment with ads that aggressive against the biggest brand, it then seems that the ideology behind this site is not in your heart, since it is not consistent with your other sites. SO its a integrity thing, for me.

You say your company is not a democracy, and i dont think anyone thought that, but as a customer i say my opinion. (Also we are obviously part of your experiment, as you call it.) I think it would be more rude of me not to spell ouy my reaction, actually. And the customer is of course always right! But without customers, no business!

All this are friendly advice, and if it means nothing, then so be it!

[rjgoos]

Traktor wrote:

>So, RJ,
What have you learned?<

What did I learn? That Rob is, as ever, diplomatic. That Steve and Glenn, not surprisingly, came to the defense of their preferred instrument. That some people don't like this style of advertising in general, while others objected to specific points. That some of the objections had merit, and the charts have been changed. That a shelter for abandoned pets is $20 richer. That I realize, for the first time, how cool it would be to have a Tapladder in a science fiction movie starring Patrick Stewart.

All of this discussion was bound to happen, either here or elsewhere, sooner or later. And, it's almost over. People have had their say. If certain charts were changed for the better, the exercise was not without merit.

[gpoorman]

K.Rex ... I was joking.

Traktor ... "hostile" and "hurt feelings" imply emotions that I generally reserve for people who know me so I can assure you that my blood pressure hasn't blipped.

RJ ... I came in defense of a comment by Gary that implied that certain pages on SE's website weren't exactly above board and my intention was to assure anyone who cares that that was not the case. Turns out Gary wasn't implying that at all so we're good. I also pointed out a factual error on the comparison chart. Apparently, here on a forum that is essentially run by Mobius Megatar these actions are considered hostile.

Other than that, Traktor can do what he wants. As a matter of fact, I'll go one better and say that I disagree with Gary in that I don't feel Traktor has any obligation whatsoever to be "fair to SE" on his company website. That would likely be counter productive to what it is he's trying to accomplish there. I don't know how many ways I can say the same thing. But this is all "spin" and nothing more. That's cool. That's what companies do. But let's call it what it is.

Traktor claims I'm not as fair minded as I think I am. Well ... just maybe Traktor isn't as much of a victim as he likes to pretend to be.

[K Rex]

Glenn, your joke was amusing.

Glad we've moved past all this.

IMO, Rob wins again. Like a Vulcan, he; cool and objective.

Kev

[traktor]

Originally posted by gpoorman
Traktor ... "hostile" and "hurt feelings" imply emotions that I generally reserve for people who know me so I can assure you that my blood pressure hasn't blipped.

... I don't feel Traktor has any obligation whatsoever to be "fair to SE" on his company website. ...

Traktor claims I'm not as fair minded as I think I am. Well ... just maybe Traktor isn't as much of a victim as he likes to pretend to be. Hi, Glenn,

Well, maybe I misread it. You've always seemed pretty level-headed in the past.

And if I gave the impression of being a victim, it was just clumsiness on my part. I'm not a victim at all.

Once upon a time, I remember, I had a little business. Very simple, very humble. Back in my still-half-hippie days. It was putting up posters on bulletin boards (http://www.bloggard.com/blog//item/107) around San Francisco. Carried them on my motorcycle (http://www.bloggard.com/blog//item/492). One day I saw a poster for a competitor. I was annoyed, because he was using my ad copy. But that's not the point.

The point is that, back in those days, I thought that I had big business 'secrets', and I had fears that somebody might 'steal' those secrets. (Now *that* is a victim mentality.)

However, some years later, on reflecting about this, I realized that pretty much every time I'd lost money or come a cropper it was my own errors and stumbling around, and not really the effects of any competitor.

I still feel the same way. Pretty much, the Universe is pretty good to me. Many things work to good, even if they don't appear that way right at first.

I'm glad to hear that I was mistaken in thinking you hostile. I'm glad you're not. Good deal then.

[dtapper]

i just read the novel.:p i'm somewhat surprised by the content of the thread. i once belonged to a similar forum, not tapping, & a ? i had sparked a great debate i.e. fight amongest a group of posters & i was shocked due to the content of the ? had no real arguing points just a simple instrument question, not brand or anything like that. this started from 1 gentleman trying to make sure he wasn't misunderstood to an amazing 6 page throw down. i truly never believed people here would get this way but 1 must remember people are people. it is funny that i was telling my wife of the good naturedness of the forum & that i never seen what happened on the other forum happen here, but i hadn't read the shall i call it "the novel". i own, as of yet, none of the instruments named here so i am not connect in any way. long winded i know.:o i have seen the Stick website & catalog,before the website, & thought cool stuff. now this was before Megatar & i saw Megatar a couple years back. there are of course neat things about both, no really there are, but what i think will cause some1 to spend hard earned bucks isn't some chart on a site. players, music, & a whole slew of other factors do that, if a simple chart could sway a nation no no a world of people wouldn't we all wear spandex & drive a yugo and live in denmark, well???? i like it here, this is a good place. there will always be a problem in the world & people will be people, God knows i am, but can't somethings & someplaces be different, are you seeing flowers & rainbows yet, WAKE UP ALMOST DONE. i lkie tractor & the company wound like a megatar some day, hopely soon, but not due to a chart my reasons 1 price/6 kids 2 the way its set up i believe would work for me 3 talk to tractor once on the phone, not saying emmitt wouldn't talk to me just happened to talk to tractor that's all 4 bass 4ths which will start getting into set up which is item #2, but then again i want to build my own really bad so maybe i won't. the simple truth is 1 will look into all & i mean all tapping instruments before choosing 1 over another so how does a simple chart cause so much pain & another thing aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!! must go fell off soap box.

[gpoorman]

Sorry all ... I was away for a bit but, at the risk of prolonging the agony, I wanted to follow up.

By the way, I've found much of the six pages to be pretty civil relatively speaking. The only other forums that I sometimes tend to frequent are generally made up of NHL hockey fans from varying cities and I guarantee you'll never find a more hostile and objectionable dialog than you'll find there :-)

Anyway ...

dtapper wrote:

"this started from 1 gentleman trying to make sure he wasn't misunderstood to an amazing 6 page throw down."

I sympathize with what you're saying but I don't think it's helpful for anyone to let some things go without, at least, some clarification.

RJ started the thread because his comments were being used, unbeknownst to him he said, to help sell Megatars and he apparently wanted to get what he felt was an inevitable discussion going (which was a reasonable thing to do IMO).

Early on in the discussion RJ wrote:

"I was a bit surprised to see my name used on these sites, and just wanted to explain the background regarding the recordings, and the comments attributed to me."

Continued use of his comments is between he and Traktor, which is as it should be. But then we got on the topic of this style of advertising in general. As I stated several times, he is free to do what he pleases on his company websites and doesn't necessarily owe any "fairness" to anyone else there.

Where I tend to have a problem is that these aren't presented as "company" websites. They are spin under the guise of "education." The domains contain the name Chapman Stick. The articles and links could initially be mistaken for official "Stick" business. Though after a little reading it becomes clear that they are just elaborate ads for Megatar.

Last April Traktor posted:

"I have no desire to tread on any trademark's toes, just as I don't want ours misused"

That's fine but it doesn't really square with newly registered domain names and article titles like the following, being used to sell Megatars:

http://learn-chapman-stick.com
http://www.squidoo.com/the-chapman-stick

I felt that Gary pretty much cut to the heart of it a couple of days ago:

"it then seems that the ideology behind this site is not in your heart, since it is not consistent with your other sites. SO its an integrity thing, for me."

We are all, of course, free to draw our own conclusions. I felt we'd made some headway in recent months towards a less antagonistic online environment for tappers, but this stuff says "business as usual" to me.

[jamsire]

Originally posted by gpoorman
Sorry all ... I was away for a bit but, at the risk of prolonging the agony, I wanted to follow up.

By the way, I've found much of the six pages to be pretty civil relatively speaking. The only other forums that I sometimes tend to frequent are generally made up of NHL hockey fans from varying cities and I guarantee you'll never find a more hostile and objectionable dialog than you'll find there :-)

Anyway ...

dtapper wrote:

"this started from 1 gentleman trying to make sure he wasn't misunderstood to an amazing 6 page throw down."

I sympathize with what you're saying but I don't think it's helpful for anyone to let some things go without, at least, some clarification.

RJ started the thread because his comments were being used, unbeknownst to him he said, to help sell Megatars and he apparently wanted to get what he felt was an inevitable discussion going (which was a reasonable thing to do IMO).

Early on in the discussion RJ wrote:

"I was a bit surprised to see my name used on these sites, and just wanted to explain the background regarding the recordings, and the comments attributed to me."

Continued use of his comments is between he and Traktor, which is as it should be. But then we got on the topic of this style of advertising in general. As I stated several times, he is free to do what he pleases on his company websites and doesn't necessarily owe any "fairness" to anyone else there.

Where I tend to have a problem is that these aren't presented as "company" websites. They are spin under the guise of "education." The domains contain the name Chapman Stick. The articles and links could initially be mistaken for official "Stick" business. Though after a little reading it becomes clear that they are just elaborate ads for Megatar.

Last April Traktor posted:

"I have no desire to tread on any trademark's toes, just as I don't want ours misused"

That's fine but it doesn't really square with newly registered domain names and article titles like the following, being used to sell Megatars:

http://learn-chapman-stick.com
http://www.squidoo.com/the-chapman-stick

I felt that Gary pretty much cut to the heart of it a couple of days ago:

"it then seems that the ideology behind this site is not in your heart, since it is not consistent with your other sites. SO its an integrity thing, for me."

We are all, of course, free to draw our own conclusions. I felt we'd made some headway in recent months towards a less antagonistic online environment for tappers, but this stuff says "business as usual" to me.

Thanks for the insight. I'm a little smarter now as well.

[K Rex]

I would like to know if Traktor is violating the Stick's trademark by using it in his domain name.

Can anyone answer this?

Kev

[traktor]

Always interesting to hear from the Stick Enterprises webmaster, Glenn Poorman.

While you're complaining about my various websites, don't forget these --
http://learn-chapman-stick.com
http://learn-warr-guitar.com
http://learn-mobius-megatar.com

I'm sure there's got to be something really wrong with somebody writing a method book about how to play Chapman Stick, Warr Guitar, and Mobius Megatar -- you know , the one I've been advertising for the last 6-8 years -- and then advertising it. Got to be something wrong with that.

And while you're complaining about my various websites, don't forget these --

http://www.squidoo.com/the-chapman-stick
http://www.squidoo.com/mobius-megatar
http://www.squidoo.com/warr-guitar

Must be something deeply wrong with some kind of desperado who would tell other people about a musical instrument. Something deeply wrong. We're agin it!

You don't seem to have any trouble with these --
www.last.fm/tag/chapman+stick
www.benpoole.com/80256B44004A7C14/articles/thechapmanstick
www.wordpress.com/tag/chapman-stick/
www.chapmanstickmusic.com/
dir.webring.com/rw?d=Music/Instruments/Stringed_Instruments/Chapman_Stick/
www.bloggard.com/blog/item/184 (that one's mine; been there for several years)
www.premierguitar.com/Magazine/Issue/2008/May/Chapman_Stick_Videos.asp
www.mp3.com/tags/chapman+stick,female+singer/
www.amazon.com/tag/chapman%20stick
www.elsewhere.org/journal/archives/2003/03/01/chapman-stick-for-sale/
www.videosift.com/video/Demonstrating-the-Chapman-Stick
chapman-stick-touchbaord.citycita.org/
www.thecipher.com/chapman_stick-cipher.html
www.guitar-tube.com/stairway-to-heaven-for-the--chapman-stick.html
www.netscape.com/tag/chapman+stick
www.mobiusbandwidth.com/stick.html (not me; a fellow named james mobius)
michaelgarfield.gaia.com/blog/2007/10/visionary_instruments_an_ode_to_the_chapman_stick
www.metacafe.com/watch/1022808/chapman_stick/
video.aol.com/video-detail/frank-boxberger-original-chapman-stick-fire-flies/877752692
billtmiller.com/stick/
www.gearwire.com/chapmanstick-ebow.html
chapmanstick.meetup.com/
tubearoo.com/articles/19364/Chapman_Stick.html
www.nickbeggs.co.uk/holding/instruments/chapman.htm
search.ebay.com/chapman-stick
www.experiencefestival.com/chapman_stick_-_construction

I stopped because I got tired of typing. I mean, a person could just keep on going with these. There must be hundreds and hundreds of them.

Your continually raising a disturbance here is completely inappropriate, both given who you work for, and your stature as a grown man. This is high school stuff.

It starts to look like -- doesn't Stick Enterprises have anybody else on the payroll that they could send over here to make a stink?

For that matter, since you're acting on great matters of principle and all, how come it is that you always come here to make the stink? How come you never raise this fuss on stickwire? I mean, if your points are just, wouldn't the greater number of people there be worth your soapbox? Or are your high principles only useful here?

This is utter baloney, Glenn.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with my activities, I'm tired of your unworthy attacks and slander, and you are completely in the wrong for coming over here to lay out this phony baloney PR hokum.

You're ... whining.

Mom! He's doing it again!

It's baloney.

Stop it.

[K Rex]

This is not a throwdown. The NY Seminar thread was a throwdown. I made the very same point Traktor made on a number of occasions: that of all the various forums available to the tap guitarist, this one hosts every bit of the whining about Traktor's websites, Traktor's unfair marketing tactics, Traktor's domain names, etc. etc. ad nauseum. I call it whining simply because none of his competition (SE, namely) has brought him back into court for his eeeviilll practices.

Why? Could it be because he is within his rights?

I would sincerely like to know how much money SE has lost over Traktor's activities, how many people have been harmed, how far the membership at Stickwire/Stickist has plummetted, etc.

Glenn, I'm quite sure that right now there is someone in a dark, smoky, seedy little room in an advertising agency devising a sinister plan to extol the benefits of product A over product B. These dastardly cretins will most assuredly have nothing positive to say at all about product B, and will likely exaggerate the virtues of product A. When that happens, I'd like you to chase after them and tell them how they are not worthy of your respect. It would be far better to divert your attention away from both this forum and Traktor's websites, which serve to draw customers not only to the megatar but to SE and tapping instruments in general.

In short, it's counterproductive for you to make a big smell on a forum full of nice people who play your instrument and care little for Traktor's activities, irrespective of how nefarious they might be, just as it is counterproductive for Greg Howard to masquerade as someone other than he really is in order to throw his weight around in a forum he describes as "moribund" or "dead". There is no other way around it: Greg was acting as an agent for SE, in that it is in his interest and SE's to throw mud in this forum. That's why Greg raised a stink in the first place, that's why he returned under an alias, that's why he raised a stink AGAIN after he was exposed, and that's why Emmet forwarded his first message to this forum in which he THANKED GREG for "staying with these issues". Pretty damning... just my opinion.

What are your motives, Glenn? How far shall we take this personal distaste for mean ol' Traktor Topaz?

Get real guys. Just like I have a choice between porn and poetry, those who don't like Traktor or "his" forum can go over to Stickist and raise holy hell about how unfair he is. Maybe you can start a campaign or something.

I WILL do so myself if I find this ugly, stupid, retarded issue showing its disfigured face again here on Tappistry. I will copy and paste the entire affair over there in order to see how long my membership there will stay intact.

Promise.

Kevmodeus Furious Rexorum

P.S. Can't we all just get along? ;)

[dtapper]

not sure K Rex your p.s. is very nice & well put but, it didn't work for rodney.:D (taking a stab at humor in a thread that's no fun) i must say this then i'm not sure, which is probly best, i'll coment on this thread due to my having no connection. ok here i go, 1 minute pulling out soap box, ah yes there that's better now, a person is aloud to stop reading thing they don't want to read, they can stop watching a show, stop hearing a radio program, yes even not go to a website, if i dare to type it, they believe is unfair, even if it's not (by law or whatever). there is absolute truth out in the world, where we get morals rights & wrongs things along these line from a power greater than any other, anyone not sure Who i'm talking about please contact me in a different way than on the board, i don't want to step on toes I AM NOT ASHAMED OF MY LORD!, there is also relative truth & personal opinon, so if it is not deemed unlawful by a court or breaking a law on the books, if it was i'm sure in the sue happy US of A there would be a lawsuit on going as we type< let it gooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo. thank you for your time. (much nicer having handrails to down from this thing)

[adde65]

I certainly have no personal problems with Traktor. So I used to take issue with people picking on him and the Megatar over on the old Stickist forum. Old Blind Freddie can see that he's using the Stick to draw attention to his own product, and has been doing so for years. No, it's probably not illegal, but it does beg the question - WHY? If you're a newbie considering an instrument, that's what you should be asking. Oddly, the "high profile" Megatar player I've found on Myspace also goes out if his way to stress the association with Chapman Stick.

Ultimately, maybe ALL publicity is good? But lets not pretend we're just sharing the love out of the goodness of our hearts. Now we've got this ugly situation where Steve's left, and Glenn's being held up as "another SE employee" coming here to sabotage things, and soon angry rednecks will come storming into Stickist.com to get back at all of us (except for Rob, of course)... Well, maybe it doesn't matter to all of you, but these guys are well-respected beyond the realms of SE.

I think a lot of us will be taking an extended break from Tappistry.

Cheers,
Andy

[gpoorman]

Just a couple of things to add.

a. I'm taking part in this conversation here and not on another forum because this is where the thread is. A thread started by one of your own forum moderators.

b. I don't work for Emmett. Yes I created his website, maintained it for a while and still get the emails to the webmaster but it was strictly freelance work and someone else has been maintaining it for quite some time now. Emmett has also never "sent" me anywhere.

[dtapper]

if people need a break for whatever reason why make a issue? i must say i love the stick guys on you tube, why be a us againist them thang?

[K Rex]

Old Blind Freddie can see that he's using the Stick to draw attention to his own product, and has been doing so for years. No, it's probably not illegal, but it does beg the question - WHY?

Because it draws attention to his own product.

Now we've got this ugly situation where Steve's left

Steve didn't leave, he posted just yesterday. And he SHOULDN'T leave, because there isn't any reason for him to leave. Leaving would be akin to taking one's football and going home after someone scores a touchdown. This "situation" is ugly because people got ugly. There isn't any reason to be ugly toward Traktor or anyone else. Only RJ had a reason to be ugly, and he comported himself with MANNERS, STYLE and CLASS.

This angry redneck won't storm Stickist unless it's members can contain themselves on this forum. Besides, I've a feeling rednecks who voice opinions contrary to the norm (i.e. criticism of the Stick) won't keep their membership for long there.

I respect Greg as a player just as I do Steve. Bob Culbertson is the MAN, as I've said many, many times. I also play Stick. I played one exclusively for 11 years. Regardless of how this "situation" continues to be misinterpreted, it is a direct result of people who have poor manners and seek to put others down for whatever reason.

K

[rjgoos]

Glenn wrote:

>A thread started by one of your own forum moderators.


Who deserves to be fired for doing so. My apologies to all.

[K Rex]

RJ,

Who could have known you would open such a can of worms? You are not to blame, and blame only perpetuates this cycle of idiocy.

Hope you are well.

Kev

[dtapper]

rj
you can not offer yourself up to a firing squad for doing what you thought would clear up what might (i stress MIGHT) have been a misunderstanding, besides from what i read it's not what you wrote but a differing in opion on how some feel a business should be ran, if not just ad wise. besides i have not heard the queen of hearts call for your head.
:D

[adde65]

Originally posted by K Rex


...This angry redneck won't storm Stickist unless it's members can contain themselves on this forum. Besides, I've a feeling rednecks who voice opinions contrary to the norm (i.e. criticism of the Stick) won't keep their membership for long there.

I respect Greg as a player just as I do Steve. Bob Culbertson is the MAN, as I've said many, many times. I also play Stick. I played one exclusively for 11 years. Regardless of how this "situation" continues to be misinterpreted, it is a direct result of people who have poor manners and seek to put others down for whatever reason.

K [/B]

I agree, Bob's amazing. He's also refreshingly uninvolved in any online discussions.

Certain people who are closely linked to Megatar and SE seem to always go for the "them vs. us" angle. That's the real problem here. You can keep saying that it's boring and stupid, and most of us will agree. But it won't stop happening until Megatar completely disassociates itself with all things Stick in its marketing. Whether that's right or wrong is another story.

Yes, things sometimes get annoyingly one-sided over on Stickist, which is why a lot of us are also regulars here. It's a shame, because both forums have lost some good people. As it happens, I raised a stink on Stickist last year because of detrimental comments which prompted a Megatar-playing member to leave. As I recall, Glenn Poorman was one of the people who backed up my point of view.

Cheers,
Andy

[dtapper]

people will always love what they have bought or bought into be it a car, idealogy, or i don't know just pulling something out of the air oh let's just say a tap style instrument. that doesn't mean anyone needs to change anything unless decided in court with the sharks getting the real benifit paid $$. 1 will always think 1 way unless for some reason has a change of heart, which can't be forced no matter what, you can chain & beat the body but the mind & soul are always free. there is no reason to cause a stink on other forums because well, what good does it do except to upset people who may have no knowledge of what is going on. the truth is all only 1 truly hurt is the one who can not or will not forgive, even if they are not the 1 who is being offended but for some reason has be hurt in the process of this thread. please as if anyone could say it better "live long & prosper" (with fingers) V thank you spock. now if the ushers will pass the collection plates.:D

[SteveA]

K Rex. Once again I sent you a personal response and once again your box is full. This seems to be the only way to reach you but I won't post my comments here. Please email me your email address.
Steve

[K Rex]

But it won't stop happening until Megatar completely disassociates itself with all things Stick in its marketing. Whether that's right or wrong is another story.

I won't hold my breath waiting for Traktor to lose money in order to please Stick purists. That's what it bolis down to... Traktor is using an image of someone else's product in order to make money. When that image is not associated with his product, he loses money... or so he thinks, perhaps. As I said, Warr doesn't need the Stick and does great business. They were involved in the same lawsuit Traktor was involved in, however, and perhaps one day Traktor won't need that image any longer to sell instruments.

In any case, it's not for me to judge unless he's using my words out of context.

K

[rpmartino]

Originally posted by K Rex
I won't hold my breath waiting for Traktor to lose money in order to please Stick purists. That's what it bolis down to... Traktor is using an image of someone else's product in order to make money. When that image is not associated with his product, he loses money... or so he thinks, perhaps. As I said, Warr doesn't need the Stick and does great business. They were involved in the same lawsuit Traktor was involved in, however, and perhaps one day Traktor won't need that image any longer to sell instruments.

I think I would agree with that observation. From a legal standpoint, the kind of information I saw was like this:

Here is an article on the use of a competitor's trademark in a Google ad:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20080407-trademark-lawsuit-could-put-the-squeeze-on-google-adwords.html

As far as domain names, a couple resources:

ICANN - Uniform Domain Name Dispute Resolution Policy
(Section 4b would be the relevant bit)
http://www.icann.org/udrp/udrp-policy-24oct99.htm

From wiki:
(see the item on Initial Interest Confusion):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trademark#Trademarks_and_domain_names

Some issues might have some relevance here but probably not in the grand scheme of things... I would think there would have to be strong evidence of using the trademarks in "bad faith" and widespread disruption of SE's business.

But the marketing style is going to inherently drive a wedge between people in the tap world, there is no way around it. By nature, it is an "us vs. them" approach (even if this forum tries to be neutral and people wonder why things have to be confrontational). It might be more common with large faceless companies dealing with mass quantities of products, but this is a smaller community where people tend to interact on a personal level, so feathers will tend to get ruffled more easily.

I can see why people who appreciate Emmett's discoveries (not just a playing method and instrument, but inventions borne from being an innovative musician in the first place) would be put off by a website network that tries to come across as an authority in the area, with a conglomeration of pages and formats, it's own version of tapping history and Emmett, an "easier" method, biased comparison charts, etc. This might have an initial impact on a newcomer but as I said before, people with some experience will likely find the material gimmicky and not particularly useful or relevant, as I did.

On the other hand, I can see why it's in Traktor's best interest to have as much traffic related to two hand tapping going through one of his sites, simply from a business standpoint. And I think he has a legitimate product to offer... by no means do I think that anyone interested in tapping is required to buy a Stick.

This is still a small enough community that a level of accountability can be maintained via feedback on forums like this, and based on discussions like this I suppose it's up to him to decide if his style of marketing is appropriate. I don't think it's wrong for anyone privately or publicly to offer their thoughts on the matter (and I think the same goes for feedback about other companies too... no one is exempt from constructive criticism), as long as it doesn't resort to potshots and accusations, or generally have a mean-spirited agenda behind it.

Does Traktor's marketing irritate me some from the perspective of a Stick player? Yeah. Do I worry about it much? No. In my experience people interested in tapping are going to do their research, ask players they like for advice, etc. rather than plop down hard cash right after reading a "you decide!" comparison chart.

Again, it all comes down to the actual music and musicians as the greatest advocate for this kind of music making and instrument of choice. Maybe I'm overly naive, and I'm sure there are situations where someone wants a Stick and thinks they will get the same experience with a lower priced or differently designed alternative. But in the long run (recognizing that there are accomplished musicians on various tap instruments), the Stick seems to have a vast advantage in this area. So I don't think Stick advocates should worry too much about it. We can just politely try to keep things honest where necessary. :)

[K Rex]

Polite, yes.

Rob is the man. One of my favorite Stick players, and quite remarkably objective.

I still can't believe this is even an issue...

Kev

[dtapper]

sir that was very nicely worded but, you took a shot at not only megatar but all other. isn't that what you started to speak out againist? if i'm wrong to think this from your post please forgive me & clarify what you meant with your last statement in your post rpmartino. i too want to keep things honest where necessary, so i don't think your statement that there just so happens to be acomplished musicians on other tap instruments but my brand is still the best & the acomplished just so happened to accidently got ahold of so thing else is truly going with your theme of high ethics in your previous posts. once again if wrong i'm sorry. you are coming across this way to me keeping in mind i don't play either.

[rpmartino]

Originally posted by dtapper
sir that was very nicely worded but, you took a shot at not only megatar but all other. isn't that what you started to speak out againist? if i'm wrong to think this from your post please forgive me & clarify what you meant with your last statement in your post rpmartino. i too want to keep things honest where necessary, so i don't think your statement that there just so happens to be acomplished musicians on other tap instruments but my brand is still the best & the acomplished just so happened to accidently got ahold of so thing else is truly going with your theme of high ethics in your previous posts. once again if wrong i'm sorry. you are coming across this way to me keeping in mind i don't play either.

Hi dtapper,

Sorry if my last statement wasn't clear. I was looking at it from the perspective of "marketing", trying to make the point that music created on each instrument is ultimately the most important thing. The Stick has been around the longest and been the leader in this field, and has the most body of work behind it. Thus I don't think Stick advocates should worry much about a certain kind of marketing style they might not approve- the music will speak for itself, and I think people will tend to be drawn to players and instruments that create music which inspires them. For example, I'm sure a lot of people are inspired to take up the Warr Guitar due to Trey Gunn's excellent musical contributions.

I wasn't knocking other instruments when I implied people wanting a Stick wouldn't have the same experience with another instrument. Different design aspects and ergonomics will result in a different feel and sound. I was addressing concerns over advertising... someone who might initially want a Stick shouldn't expect a different tapping instrument to be the same experience based on what they might read in marketing material.

I've not tried a Megatar yet (would certainly be happy to do so someday) but have tried the NS/Stick and Warr Guitar and think they are great instruments, just a somewhat different experience, because the Stick has some unique qualities compared to more traditional guitar-based designs. I have personal reasons for why I play the Stick and why it works best for my music, but the main point in my last post was about marketing, not one instrument being better than another.

I hope this clarifies.

Rob

[jamsire]

Are we still talking about this.

Seriously.

Does anybody have any cool videos to post instead?

Does anybody have any cool music to post instead?

Does anybody have any cool new instruments to post instead?

DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANYTHING ELSE?????????????

:mad:

[rpmartino]

Originally posted by jamsire
Are we still talking about this.

Seriously.

Does anybody have any cool videos to post instead?

Does anybody have any cool music to post instead?

Does anybody have any cool new instruments to post instead?

DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANYTHING ELSE?????????????

:mad:

Hi jamsire,

I understand the sentiments. I only ever post if I feel there is something to say that might help bring the topic to a close. Sorry if I added additional misery.

But since you asked, here you go, just recently posted:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=urbUPiPNwpE

Classical guitarists might cringe, but be nice, it's my first such attempt. :)

[jamsire]

Originally posted by rpmartino
Hi jamsire,

I understand the sentiments. I only ever post if I feel there is something to say that might help bring the topic to a close. Sorry if I added additional misery.

But since you asked, here you go, just recently posted:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=urbUPiPNwpE

Classical guitarists might cringe, but be nice, it's my first such attempt. :)

No cringing here my friend!

You got me thinking duets - wink.

Awesome.

[KrisNH]

I'm a Les Paul guy, always have been. I have friends that play Strats that constantly, in good fun, jab me about my Gibsons. The banter goes on online as well all the time, and at times escalates into pretty heated discussion. It's human nature to want to identify with a team (go Steelers!!), a band, or an instrument. It gives us a sense of community. It's fun. And ultimately it brings attention to said instruments, people start to research a little more, and more Sticks/Megatars/Box/Warrs/TapLadders are sold. Great! Maybe we all love baseball, but we don't all love the Red Sox... maybe we're all tappers, but we're passionate about our own choice of instruments. I don't see the problem. Keep the banter coming!

Kris

[rpmartino]

Originally posted by KrisNH
Maybe we all love baseball, but we don't all love the Red Sox...

I'll forgive you Kris.... this time.

[glints-collide]

Does anybody have any cool videos to post instead?

Does anybody have any cool music to post instead?

Does anybody have any cool new instruments to post instead?

DOES ANYBODY HAVE ANYTHING ELSE?????????????


Yes!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=awBvRPBhJfI


:-)

[KrisNH]

Just to ease Mr. Martino's mind, I am a Red Sox fan, and I do play a Stick =)

Kris

[dtapper]

thanks rp, my misunderstanding. by the way royals fan, iknow iknow but i've been 1 before i probaly knew there was even other teams.:D