Effects Bleed.

[secondfiddle]

I am installing new pickups on my Box guitar, Lace hot gold pups. This will give my an oppportunity to also change out the stereo output jack to 2 single jacks. Will this help prevent effects bleed or is it the pickups that cause this. I get the most bleed through when using distortion.
Thanks.

[traktor]

Magnetic fields do not extend a certain distance and then stop with a sharp edge. Instead, they fall off in a logarhymic curve with distance. Most Electro-magnetic radiation follows this same curve.

To be specific, in the case of light intensity as you move away from a lightbulb or a sun, the intensity dies off with the square root of the distance. (Similarly the movement of dye particles inside a jug of water would disperse as a function of the square root of time.)

I've never seen this written, but most likely the magnetic field weakens as a negative function of the square root of the distance. In theory this means that my guitar in the kitchen can pick up the movement of the strings on your guitar in the dining room, but because the distance is so far the amount of sound picked up is way below what we can hear.

However, the magnetic field on one set of strings is close enough to minutely pick up the vibrations of the nearest string(s) of the other stringset.

Normally, with clean settings, you don't hear it much. However, when you add distortion you are 'clipping' the signal which on an oscilloscope looks like a squared off wave. And though it's counter-intuitive, a squared off wave is created by adding higher harmonics. So when we add distortion we are also adding higher harmonics.

Our ears track higher harmonics (on many notes) more easily than our ears track the basic frequency (the 'fundamental').

Thus, when you add distortion, the cross-talk sound becomes more audible.

This will be worst when the near string of the other stringset is big, because that will disturb our magnetic field more than if the near string of the other stringset were small.

I don't know if any of this is helpful. But it's interesting, no?

[Nightmare Music]

lace sensors might have a little less bleed though, their website claims to have a much smaller magnetic field than standard pickups. i'm not sure how this would translate as far as bleed though. they speak mostly about the amount of pull on the strings.

[secondfiddle]

Thanks for the explanation Traktor, I had to read it a few times before it sank in, lol. Your point being there is no cutoff, I am just trying to lessen it to the ninth degree. I notice on Warr guitars they use 2 single output jacks instead of one stereo, do they do this to reduce the crosstalk.

[traktor]

Originally posted by secondfiddle
... I notice on Warr guitars they use 2 single output jacks instead of one stereo, do they do this to reduce the crosstalk. No, that's not to reduce crosstalk. The dual mono outjacks is a way to reduce battery drain.

Here's how the battery business works ...

Warr Guitars are generally built as active-circuit instruments, meaning that there's a preamp circuit inside the instrument, and this circuit needs battery power to operate.

Now suppose that you played an hour per day. But if the battery is on 24 hours a day, even if the circuit isn't doing any work, the battery is going to lose some power. So it's a good idea to turn off the battery drain.

By using an output jack wired a certain way, it's easy to turn off the battery when you unjack your cables. This is a good idea because it conserves your battery usage. But this wiring trick, which is commonly done, only works with mono cables.

Therefore, Warr Guitars have to use two outjacks and two separate mono cables. So if you jack a cable into either outjack, the battery is on. And when both cables are unjacked, the battery is off.

However, unless they're doing some truly unique noise-cancelling thing that I've never seen done on a guitar, these dual outjacks have nothing to do with reducing crosstalk. Unfortunately the melody signal is *in* the bass signal that's going out the bass outjack.

On Mobius Megatar instruments, we like active-circuits too, and they really do enhance the sound, because its a way to get *all* the sound that's in the pickup to go the distance to get into the amp, instead of having some of the signal lost in the cable on the way to the amp.

The only difference is that on Mobius Megatar instruments, dual Bartolini active-circuit preamps are one of the *options* you can choose, or not. When you skip the active-circuits, you save $320. Lots of people like to save $320. But it's always your choice, on any instrument with Bartolini pickups.

On our standard instruments we use the efficient stereo outjack. And on our active-circuit instruments (called 'Banshee' in the model name), we also install dual mono outjacks and provide a pair of high-end mono cables, for exactly the same reason -- to conserve battery when you unjack your cables.

By golly, you're going to have to start calling me 'Mr. Wizard.' No, now that I think about it, I believe that I would prefer being called 'Dread Pirate Topaz.'

Yeah. Yeah. That's it.

[secondfiddle]

Thanks again for the info Dread Pirate Topaz. I will just replace my old pups with new ones and leave it at that, ffs.

[tapmeister]

Originally posted by traktor
No, that's not to reduce crosstalk. The dual mono outjacks is a way to reduce battery drain.

Here's how the battery business works ...

Warr Guitars are generally built as active-circuit instruments, meaning that there's a preamp circuit inside the instrument, and this circuit needs battery power to operate.

Now suppose that you played an hour per day. But if the battery is on 24 hours a day, even if the circuit isn't doing any work, the battery is going to lose some power. So it's a good idea to turn off the battery drain.

By using an output jack wired a certain way, it's easy to turn off the battery when you unjack your cables. This is a good idea because it conserves your battery usage. But this wiring trick, which is commonly done, only works with mono cables.

Therefore, Warr Guitars have to use two outjacks and two separate mono cables. So if you jack a cable into either outjack, the battery is on. And when both cables are unjacked, the battery is off.


The NS/Stick and ACTV-2 equipped Sticks have stereo TRS 1/4" jacks that are also power switching jacks.

So what you're saying about it only working with mono cables is not correct, at least not in general (perhaps that's only the way it is with your pickups).

And for the rest of the thread subject:

1. Make sure your pickups are as close to the strings as possible without causing any magnetic interference with the string.

2. Back off on the gain and compression a bit

3. Tap with gusto!

And remember, if you have an instrument with built-in resonances, those will only increase crosstalk, as the vibrating structure can transmit one note's fundamental into another's.

On a mono instrument it doesn't matter, but on an instrument with two output channels and a Big Muff attached to one of them, it matters a lot.

Happy Tapping,
Greg
http://www.myspace.com/gregplaysthestick
http://www.youtube.com/gregplaysthestick

[lactose]

I saw a jack somewhere recently, maybe at StewMac, that has two mechanical switches in it. Which means not only can you use a stereo jack (the purely stereo jack power switching requires a mono plug) but you could also switch the power on a bipolar supply. I was thinking about this because I am building a fanned fret bass and am trying to decide whether to go 9v or 18v for the piezo preamp supply.

[traktor]

Originally posted by tapmeister
So what you're saying about it only working with mono cables is not correct, at least not in general (perhaps that's only the way it is with your pickups). Now, Dread Pirate Howard, let's not be snarky, me hearty.

I was trying to keep the information simple, and the question was about Warr's outjacks, not yours. That's why I worded it to say: "By using an output jack wired a certain way, it's easy to turn off the battery when you unjack your cables. ... this wiring trick, WHICH IS COMMONLY DONE, only works with mono cables."

Now I'm no expert on all of instrument building, and I'm guessing that neither are you.

However, since by and large the main body of active-circuit instruments (that is, basses and guitars) have mono outputs, and since the common stereo jack is plentiful, reliable, and inexpensive, then by and large what I understand that these folks COMMONLY DO is to use a stereo jack for the mono plug on a mono cable.

Here'e how it works: The tip continues to carry the signal, and the ring continues to connect to ground -- just as if you'd used a mono outjack -- but now the 'sleeve' contact of the stereo outjack is connected to the battery's ground side. Now when the mono plug goes in, since there is no 'sleeve' on the mono plug, the sleeve contact is effectively shorted to the ground by the solid shaft (the 'ring') of the outjack, and this turns on the battery.

Of course, as you and Lactose brought up, switching jacks certainly exist. Many different kinds.

Switchcraft makes good quality outjacks -- we found some questionable contacts with one other brand but not with Switchcraft -- and you can find these Switchcraft outjacks in great variety in the Digi-Key, Mouser, or MSC Direct catalogues.

Some of these switching output jacks require some circuitry to interpret -- that is, sometimes closing the contact means 'break the circuit' and logic is required -- and other switching output jacks are simply mechanical, where the insertion of the jack pushes the outjack contact over so that it contacts another contact. And if you say that your company uses some, then that's swell.

However, the simplest way to do it that I know, and the one I've seen commonly used in guitars and basses, and as used in Warr guitars, is to simply use a stereo jack but expect a mono plug and used the 'sleeve' to connect up the ground to the battery so that the battery is only active when the (mono) jack is in place.

We also use switching outjacks, when we install the Graph Tech 'Ghost' system to provide 'acoustiphonic' piezo sound or midi. But for conserving the battery on active circuits, we prefer the simplest method (like Warr does) which is to use simple wired outjacks and mono cables.

I could be wrong of course, but I believe that what I said was correct, and perhaps this info explains why.

[tapmeister]

Originally posted by traktor
Now, Dread Pirate Howard, let's not be snarky, me hearty.

I was trying to keep the information simple, and the question was about Warr's outjacks, not yours. That's why I worded it to say: "By using an output jack wired a certain way, it's easy to turn off the battery when you unjack your cables. ... this wiring trick, WHICH IS COMMONLY DONE, only works with mono cables."


Well thanks for clarifying.

Didn't mean to be snarky (don't think I was).

But if this is the only reason that you are making people use two cables when one would do, there's an acceptable alternative. Perhaps you should consider it.

[traktor]

Greg's right in some ways. Sometimes the switched jack is the best solution. Sometimes two cables is. And I guess we all engineer our instruments the way we think is best.

Be that as it may. The discussion is actually about crosstalk. The simplest way to cut down on cross talk -- if you're building your own instrument -- is to move the two stringsets a little further apart, as we have done. Crosstalk drops off sharply with the pickup's distance from the other stringset.

The next most important way to reduce crosstalk -- in my own opinion based on the evidence given me by my ears -- is to keep any big strings out of the middle. A small string will only induce a little crosstalk into the other pickup, whereas a big string induces more crosstalk. A big string is a larger mass, and it is the movement of a metal mass in a magnetic field that produces the signal. Bigger string, more mass moving, bigger signal. That's why larger strings are louder when the pickup or pole pieces are set level.

Anybody with a big string in the middle can test this. Turn off one side and then the other, while tapping on the two strings most in the middle of the fretboard. Listen to each side. Which do you hear more? The largest string coming through the opposite side, or the smaller string coming through the opposite side?

So, if crosstalk was the most important thing there was, then the best way to tune any instrument would be Daniel Schell's mirror tuning, arranged so that the smallest strings of each stringset were in the middle.

But ... I think that most of us would agree that having the tuning that works best for your head and your fingers is a more important design/operation issue than optimizing the instrument to reduce crosstalk as the over-riding priority.

And Greg's points about pickup height and action are right on. The better the signal being received of *its own stringset* then the weaker in comparison is any crosstalk signal coming from the other stringset.

[tapmeister]

Originally posted by traktor
Greg's right in some ways. Sometimes the switched jack is the best solution. Sometimes two cables is. And I guess we all engineer our instruments the way we think is best.

I've never met anyone that actually LIKED having to have two cables coming off their instrument. I can't really see how it's the best choice for a stereo instrument.

Happy Tapping,
Greg

[PhoBucket]

I actually prefer two cables to a single stereo cable, if only for the relatively mundane reason that if a cable goes, someone else is more likely to have a mono cable on hand than a stereo cable. Yes of course this can easily be solved by carrying a spare cable, but thats how I feel about it right now. Also prefer cables with right angle jacks at the instrument.

For me, the ability to switch between stereo and mono, as seen on the NS/Stick (and maybe some others, not sure) is optimal.

I remember Mark Cook telling me how happy he was with his new Phalanx because it reduced cross-talk, and he uses an uncrossed parallel fourths tuning, so I imagine having the biggest bass string next to the smallest melody string would exaggerated the issue for him if the string sets were closer together.

Jim Wright cut the base plate on the bridge of his Warr guitar between the melody and bass strings, but I am not sure if this would reduce cross talk, or just reduce sympathetic vibrations.

[Jim_D]

I was surprised to find crosstalk when I first played my megatar, but soon came to realise the physics of what was going on and it became part of the territory. I mean when you start playing regular electric guitar there's a whole host of things to contend with; feedback, hum, tuning, and all the scrapes and rattles and so on that come from moving your hands around the strings. I remember learning chords and having to work out how to mute single strings to get the voicings I wanted. Never easy but you get there in the end.

After a while you get better at playing your instrument and work out ways of stopping all the weird non-musical sounds. Or in some cases you add them into your playing. I remember reading an interview with Eddie Van Halen about the song "Intruder" from the VH album called Diver Down. He spoke about making all sorts of strange sounds with the guitar, like rubbing beer cans across the strings and so on. You hear the song and sure, it's noise, but it's *the song* too - it's what he wanted to do. He wanted to make all the sorts of noises that most guitarists have to learn to control and put them in that track.

For me, a little bit of cross talk is part of the experience of playing an amplified twin output tap guitar, along with finger noises from wound strings and so on. There's a track by King Crimson called Two Sticks where (if you turn it up loud) you can hear the fingering of the chords. The recording not only has all the musical chords and notes but also has the little sounds that give it the quality of someone physically *playing* the instrument. It's great.

I'd like to hear some recordings where crosstalk is featured more heavily in songs!

[tapmeister]

Originally posted by PhoBucket
For me, the ability to switch between stereo and mono, as seen on the NS/Stick (and maybe some others, not sure) is optimal.


Both the ACTV-2 and PASV-4 Stick pickups have mono capabilities. Do any of the other tapping instruments out there offer this?

[PhoBucket]

I just looked it up and both Warrs and Megatars offer stereo/mono switches as an option. Glad to see the option is readily available from many sources.

[tapmeister]

Originally posted by Jim_D
For me, a little bit of cross talk is part of the experience of playing an amplified twin output tap guitar, along with finger noises from wound strings and so on. There's a track by King Crimson called Two Sticks where (if you turn it up loud) you can hear the fingering of the chords. The recording not only has all the musical chords and notes but also has the little sounds that give it the quality of someone physically *playing* the instrument. It's great.

I'd like to hear some recordings where crosstalk is featured more heavily in songs!
Hi Jim,

Generally I do my best to minimize it, but ... the third track on my CD Lift, called "The Offering" I mixed "up" the crosstalk to add effect to the bass strings:

There's a sample track here, where it kicks in at around 1:20:

http://cdbaby.com/cd/greghoward2

Happy Tapping,
Greg

[traktor]

Greg sez:
I've never met anyone that actually LIKED having to have two cables coming off their instrument. ...Greg,

I hope this will not come as a shock.

But, Greg, you have two cables coming out of your Stick. I know because I saw one of your videos. (And also I have personally owned almost two hundred Sticks. They were all that way.)

However, teasing aside, it's actually a darn good question. I had a few Warr Guitars, and didn't actually have any reaction to the cables. (I just thought the red and black cables looked really cool, and I liked the way they smelled.)

However, although I've never met anyone who expressed any opinion one way or the other, I absolutely don't know if there is, in general, any preference for two cables versus a stereo jack and two cables.

I'm glad you've raised the question. If it makes some sort of difference, I'd like to know. I've got an idea about how maybe we could find out.

Anyway, thanks!

[tapmeister]

Originally posted by traktor


I hope this will not come as a shock.

But, Greg, you have two cables coming out of your Stick. I know because I saw one of your videos. (And also I have personally owned almost two hundred Sticks. They were all that way.)

However, teasing aside, it's actually a darn good question. I had a few Warr Guitars, and didn't actually have any reaction to the cables. (I just thought the red and black cables looked really cool, and I liked the way they smelled.)

However, although I've never met anyone who expressed any opinion one way or the other, I absolutely don't know if there is, in general, any preference for two cables versus a stereo jack and two cables.

I'm glad you've raised the question. If it makes some sort of difference, I'd like to know. I've got an idea about how maybe we could find out.

Anyway, thanks!
Just so that no one is confused by your post, The Stick only has one cable coming out. It divides at some point into two leads, or in a device like the Rane SP-13, but it's only one cable to deal with at the instrument.

I've spoken with a few players of other instruments who told me they didn't like having multiple cables coming off their instrument, that they felt like it made for a more awkward situation on stage, and things got tangled up sometimes. Or they didn't like having to plug in two cables when they got onstage (easy to forget one, etc) or switched intsruments.

I've never met anyone who said "I like having two cables coming out of my instrument." Ben's the first to speak positively about it in any way, and his reason is tangential.

It's not a big deal, really. And indeed, it has nothing to do with crosstalk.

Happy Quibbling, Trak,
Greg

[lactose]

Jim Wright cut the base plate on the bridge of his Warr guitar
Ralph Novak feels pretty strongly that having the strings coupled through the wood is better than having them coupled thru the bridge. Hence his individual string bridge system.

[traktor]

Originally posted by lactose
Ralph Novak feels pretty strongly that having the strings coupled through the wood is better than having them coupled thru the bridge. Hence his individual string bridge system. I was lucky enough to be visiting in his shop, and he was the one who showed me how the individual 'platelles' should be designed.

And as it happened, on his wall he had 5-6 guitars, and two of them were pretty much identical, except that one of them had the individual platelles, and the other had a compound bridge plate. (I mean it was fanned, but it was one piece like a normal bridge plate.)

Ralph tuned them up, then played me a chord first on the one and then on the other.

On the one with the separate bridge platelles, you could hear each string more clearly. It's a fact.

Although we normally install the platelles -- which we call the 'Twelve Tone Bridge' -- on our Novak fanned-fret ToneWeaver, it would absolutely be possible to install them on any of our parallel-fret instruments. It would just be another thing you could choose when we custom-assemble the instrument to your spec.

It would have the same string-clarity effect on a parallel-fret instrument like a MaxTapper or TrueTapper.

However, as far as my ears can tell, this string-clarity effect (or 'coupling') is unrelated to the magnetic-field 'crosstalk' that's been discussed here.

[secondfiddle]

Thanks all for the information.

[secondfiddle]

After a week of playing time behind the Lace pickups all I can say is these are tapping pickups. Sound wise they are extremely balanced with the low strings never overpowering the highs. The tone is incredible and made my pedal board really shine instead of using it to compensate for lack of tone of the old pickups. Crosstalk is 99.9% eliminated even with the most annoying distortion I put them through, I am still stunned how well these pickups eliminate it. My hat off to Lace for making my fiddle sound incredible.