Major Triad Fingering

[Rayzcane]

Attached is a diagram of a Fretboard Diagram showing every possible note in a Major Triad Chord. There are no fret position markers/numbers/dots because it the SHAPES that we are concerned with. Once you know one shape for one chord, you will know that shape for all 12 chords (of that type) in all 12 keys!

This is a most wonderful benefit of parallel 4th tuning. Also, once you know one shape for a particular chord, you also know that shape on each of the string sets. To be more clear, refer to the attached diagram. Before I had ever heard of the CAGED system, or the naming convention of “first inversion”, “second inversion”, etc., I learned a naming convention from a Mel Bay booklet called “Guitar Melody Chord Playing System”.

In that system, if the highest note in the chord was the root, then it was called Form I. If if the highest note in the chord was the third, then it was called Form III. The same goes for Form V, etc.

Ok, back to stringsets. Take a look at the first circled chord at the top right of the diagram. The fifth of this major chord is on the third string. The root of this chord is on the second string, and the third of this chord is on the first (highest) melody string. This particular circled diagram appears on stringset 3-2-1. If we take a closer look, it also appears on stringset 4-3-2, and on stringset 5-4-3, and on stringset 6-5-4. Therefore, what I call a Form III major chord, appears in 4 or 5 different places on the fretboard. It is the exact same shape and it uses the exact same fingering in each of the locations.

The same thing is true for Forms V and I. Dang! I sure do hope this is somewhat clear. I am doing this mainly for me, but I am a sharing soul and I sincerely hope that this sort of thing will help other beginners. This is really important stuff, with a minimum of theory.

One of the main reasons for posting this topic is that I need some input on what is the best or most efficient fingering for the various shapes/diagrams I will be posting. For my own use, at almost 65 years old, and just starting out on touchstyle, I know that I will never attain the technical proficiency to use my pinky on either hand for playing either chords or scales or musical passages.

I invite some of the more experienced players to reflect back to the time when you were starting to learn a touchstyle instrument. Try to remember the frustration you felt when you were trying to get all of this figured out in your own mind. After your head stops bobbing up and down, howz about chiming in here and tell us YOUR way of doing things?

For instance, how do you real musicians finger these simple shapes? For the first shape at the top of my diagram (Form III), there are several possibilities for fingering this SHAPE. Is your index finger ALWAYS on the third? Do you then play the fifth and the root with two fingers or with one finger “folded over”? These may seem like insignificant details, but they could make a world of difference to us newbies.

For the second circled shape, the fingering seems fairly obvious. I assume that for the circled shape on the bottom (Form I) we play the fifth and the root with the index finger?
Do you stretch the middle finger to grab the third or do you use the ring finger?

Afterthought: If you are playing “Uncrossed”, the fingering will be much different than in a “Crossed Hands” system like Megatar Bass Bottom tuning.

Ray Langley

[rpmartino]

I thought about this a bit and realized my fingerings depend on the context. Even without the pinky you should find quite a wealth of possibilities (in fact Greg Howard and Emmett Chapman minimize use of the right pinky, as described in their instruction material if you don't have them). I use the pinky for some chords, but generally not for single line melodies.

As it relates to these helpful chord shapes you've diagrammed, sometimes I play two adjacent strings on the same fret with one finger, sometimes I use different fingers, depending on what chord or melodic phrase comes next. Just taking one chord in isolation, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer as to the best way to finger it. Whatever results in the most efficient movement from one thing to the next.

[Rayzcane]

Thanks Rob,

BTW, you are one of my favorite touchstyle players!

I just discovered something interesting with playing lapstyle. You will have to put your axe on a table to "see" this. I have a lot of latitude in figuring how to finger a chord.

For instance, for a 3 note Dom 7 chord (the one that looks like a D7 on regular guitar), I can finger it like all other players with my RH fingers pointing across the instrument. I can finger it by rotating my right elbow in to the ribcage and rotating my body to the right. I can also finger it ala Dave Bunker and Jimmy Webster by aiming my fingertips toward the tuning pegs. So, sometimes different fingers can be used to make this chord.

Ray

[tapmeister]

An interesting abosvervation about this.

I found some Wes Montgomery videos on YouTube and was intrigued to see him using mostly 4 fingers in his fretting hand for "specific parts", and 3 fingers for improvising.

Still processing what that means, exactly, but getting there.

Responding to what Rob said, maximizing hand movement as the source of energy, and minimizing up-and-down finger movement makes finger choice less of an issue. Think of it more as your whole hand "dancing" on the fretboard, and less as if you are simply "typing" in a scale position where your fingers are usually lined up with specific frets.

There are a host of other benefits to focusing on hand movement that have to do with tone, timing, independence, endurance, etc.

I've been working on a lot of material about the physiology of tapping which I hope to present soon.

For now, you can see what I'm talking about in both of these videos:

http://www.stick.com/onlinevideos/bigbang.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeNhSOeHCM4

Happy Tapping,
Greg


Originally posted by rpmartino
I thought about this a bit and realized my fingerings depend on the context. Even without the pinky you should find quite a wealth of possibilities (in fact Greg Howard and Emmett Chapman minimize use of the right pinky, as described in their instruction material if you don't have them). I use the pinky for some chords, but generally not for single line melodies.

As it relates to these helpful chord shapes you've diagrammed, sometimes I play two adjacent strings on the same fret with one finger, sometimes I use different fingers, depending on what chord or melodic phrase comes next. Just taking one chord in isolation, I don't think there is a right or wrong answer as to the best way to finger it. Whatever results in the most efficient movement from one thing to the next.

[Rayzcane]

Greg said: "There are a host of other benefits to focusing on hand movement that have to do with tone, timing, independence, endurance, etc.

I've been working on a lot of material about the physiology of tapping which I hope to present soon."

==========

Thank you Master Howard! I'm sure that all of us here would love to hear and learn more about the subjects you mentioned above.

How will your material be presented? Are you thinking book, CD, DVD, or freely and openly sharing with us in this forum? My vote is for the latter.

Your rendition of "Goodbye Porkpie Hat" is masterful.

Ray

[tapmeister]

Hi Ray,

Thanks for your kind comment. I was lucky enough to have had that performance videotaped. It's an intimidatng thing to play a tune that's been covered so well by people like Jeff Beck (my first hearing of the tune)

I've never encountered another version that treated it as a waltz, so if you come across one I'd love to hear that.

As far as the material I mentioned, I've been a professional teacher of Emmett's Free Hands method for almost 12 years, so most of what I'm spending my time on will end up in cohesive, produced lesson material, like my method book.

But I do try to contribute where can when subjects come up on forums, too.

If you're interested in some of what I've written, as well as some really insightful posts by other players, you can check out several threads on stickist.com where I've already written at length about the physiology of technique:

http://www.stickist.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=2131

http://www.stickist.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1984

http://www.stickist.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1683

I'll try to contribute here as well.

Happy Reading,
Greg

Originally posted by Rayzcane
Greg said: "There are a host of other benefits to focusing on hand movement that have to do with tone, timing, independence, endurance, etc.

I've been working on a lot of material about the physiology of tapping which I hope to present soon."

==========

Thank you Master Howard! I'm sure that all of us here would love to hear and learn more about the subjects you mentioned above.

How will your material be presented? Are you thinking book, CD, DVD, or freely and openly sharing with us in this forum? My vote is for the latter.

Your rendition of "Goodbye Porkpie Hat" is masterful.

Ray

[Rayzcane]

Thanks Greg,

I read every word.... I am in full-time learning mode. Usually on our family summer reunion and our family Christmas party, I play a solo fingerstyle performance on acoustic guitar, mostly in open tunings. But, on December 1st, 2007, I abandoned all other instruments. So, while I won't be playing this Christmas, I intend to give one hell of a touchstyle show next summer.

On one of your included links above, you talked about crossed, versus uncrossed playing styles. As a budding lapstyle touchstyle player, I am "seeing" the advantages and disavantages of using both methodologies. My instrument is flat on a table in front of me.

I use Bass Bottom tuning. My left hand is playing uncrossed and my right hand is playing crossed! This works great for my right hand on the melody strings as I can choose to place my right thumb UNDER the neck or I can let the right thumb "ride along" on the edge of the neck.

The left hand is a major problem for me. The left thumb has no place for leverage/grip/purchase! This part is driving me crazy. For a while I placed a 1 inch wooden dowel up against the neck. The dowel was about 1 foot long. My thumb rides along this dowel. This works pretty well until the right hand starts playing in the area near the dowel.

I'm trying to figure out some kind of arrangement/device so that the left hand has support, but also so that the right hand thumb can still get underneath the neck when both hands are playing close together. So far, it is elusive.

Ray

[tapmeister]

Hi Ray,

As a former piano player, what I actually really liked was the way The Stick is held up close to the body. This is something I wrote that Emmett used on a Stick brochure long ago.

"...The Stick liberates the keyboardist. It is worn and held. It becomes a part of your music-making body. You are not longer "at" your instrument, you are "with it."... "

I feel more this way than ever, so while I don't understand your interest in putting it on your lap, I find it very intersting to read about your explorations of it.

I also find it interesting to see your observations about applying different method approaches, Chapman's "Free Hands" with right-hand fingers lined up with the frets, and the "Touch System" (of DeArmond, Webster and Bunker) with right hand fingers lined up with the strings.

Maybe one way to expand your understanding of how lapstyle would work best would be to think of the instrument less as two separate groups of string and try to get both hands playing everything (this is something that "crossed" players easily do because all of the strings fall under both hands).

Anyway, I think you've made the right move by dedicating all of your energy to it. I found I had to give up playing keyboards and sax for a while in order to make real progress in my Stick playing.

In 1992 I put away all my effects and other instruments and I sat down and spent several hundred hours making "Stick Figures." I think that was when I really learned how to play.

http://cdbaby.com/cd/greghoward

http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewAlbum?playListId=258167345

Looking forward to reading more.

Happy Tapping,
Greg

Originally posted by Rayzcane
Thanks Greg,

I read every word.... I am in full-time learning mode. Usually on our family summer reunion and our family Christmas party, I play a solo fingerstyle performance on acoustic guitar, mostly in open tunings. But, on December 1st, 2007, I abandoned all other instruments. So, while I won't be playing this Christmas, I intend to give one hell of a touchstyle show next summer.

On one of your included links above, you talked about crossed, versus uncrossed playing styles. As a budding lapstyle touchstyle player, I am "seeing" the advantages and disavantages of using both methodologies. My instrument is flat on a table in front of me.

I use Bass Bottom tuning. My left hand is playing uncrossed and my right hand is playing crossed! This works great for my right hand on the melody strings as I can choose to place my right thumb UNDER the neck or I can let the right thumb "ride along" on the edge of the neck.

The left hand is a major problem for me. The left thumb has no place for leverage/grip/purchase! This part is driving me crazy. For a while I placed a 1 inch wooden dowel up against the neck. The dowel was about 1 foot long. My thumb rides along this dowel. This works pretty well until the right hand starts playing in the area near the dowel.

I'm trying to figure out some kind of arrangement/device so that the left hand has support, but also so that the right hand thumb can still get underneath the neck when both hands are playing close together. So far, it is elusive.

Ray

[Rayzcane]

Hello again,

Greg: so while I don't understand your interest in putting it on your lap, I find it very interesting to read about your explorations of it.

Ray: Well it’s not really an interest. It’s more of a necessity. Without going into detail of my various diseases, illnesses, and infirmities, let’s just say that I have a blue card on my dashboard and I park in the handicapped zone. So, I’m not really trying to learn lap style because of personal preference. For me, it has to be this way or not at all.

Greg: I also find it interesting to see your observations about applying different method approaches, Chapman's "Free Hands" with right-hand fingers lined up with the frets, and the "Touch System" (of DeArmond, Webster and Bunker) with right hand fingers lined up with the strings.

Ray: Unfortunately, I am kind of struggling out here alone. There is no guidebook for this method of play. If I can get a handle on this, maybe I will write that book one day. In the meantime, I have to find out what I am able to do in this method.

Greg: Maybe one way to expand your understanding of how lapstyle would work best would be to think of the instrument less as two separate groups of strings and try to get both hands playing everything (this is something that "crossed" players easily do because all of the strings fall under both hands).

Ray: Okay, are you saying to play exactly the same thing, at the same time, with both hands, on both sets of strings? This would encompass chords, scales, melodies, etc.? This idea is a little different for lapstyle, since both hands are using DIFFERENT fingers to play the same passages. In other words, if a note is played with the RH index finger, the same note would be played with the LH ring finger, on the bass strings. On the upside, the played notes still ascend or descend in the same direction with both hands.

Maybe someday I will be the “Lapmeister”. That was a little joke.

Ray

[PhoBucket]

Ray,

Why not have your thumb over the fingerboard and use to play notes? Especially in the left hand. I understand that the angle can cause some muting issues with tight string spacing, but I like the freedom.

Also, this allows me to play with the weight of my arm instead of relying solely on finger pressure.

How high is your Laptapper? Are you forearms going parallel to the floor, or pointing up or down?

Maybe I'm not picturing your hand position correctly.

Best,
Ben

[Rayzcane]

Hi Ben,

Here is a photo of my LapStation:

http://www.tappistry.org/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1020&highlight=camper

The keyboard is gone now. The height of the instrument is the same as if I were playing a keyboard on the same table. That was a toneweaver in the photo. I am now playing an Eclipse. A fretboard with slanted frets is practically impossible to play! I am certain that was a big part of my extremely slow progress in the beginning.

The "thumb idea" has great merit, especially on the very lowest bass and treble strings. I will develop that concept. It should make some of those boogie-woogie bass lines easier to achieve.

Ray

[tapmeister]

Hi Ben and Ray,

Funny, I was just going to suggest the thumbs, and also try to raise the far side of the fretboard up, maybe to about 20 degrees, and see if it doesn't improve your wrist comfort.

The function of the thumb when we wear the instrument is to help "grab" the notes and to provide a pivoting reference point.

You would absolutley not need either if you were tapping "down" to an instrument in front of you as you are doing.

Happy Tapping,
greg

Originally posted by PhoBucket
Ray,

Why not have your thumb over the fingerboard and use to play notes? Especially in the left hand. I understand that the angle can cause some muting issues with tight string spacing, but I like the freedom.

Also, this allows me to play with the weight of my arm instead of relying solely on finger pressure.

How high is your Laptapper? Are you forearms going parallel to the floor, or pointing up or down?

Maybe I'm not picturing your hand position correctly.

Best,
Ben

[Tom Drinkwater]

I don't mean to butt in but I too play lap style. Okay, okay, I do mean to butt in. I built an instrument a while ago and have found it much easier to play (to me anyways) than holding it like other instruments. It has 10 strings, 4 bass and 6 melody. The bass is closest to me. I think it is 35" scale on the bass and around 25" on the melody. Greg is right about not thinking about it as two seperate sides. Once I started using both hands all over the place, thumbs included, it became much easier to play. With a little practice you can play chords and alternating bass lines at the same time with your right hand and do whatever you want to with the left. Or vise versa. Lot's of fun. Hopefully soon I'll have my website up so you can see pics of the beast I have created. Peace!!

[Rayzcane]

Hey Tom,

Keep talking....

Are you saying that both of your hands are "free-floating" without any anchor points?

I would love to see the pix of your instrument.

The whole idea of there being two separate instruments is what attracted me to this entire concept in the first place. My eventual goal is to play independent bass lines/arpeggios with the left hand and harmonized chordal melodies with the right hand.

Ray

[Tom Drinkwater]

I didin't mean to hi jack your thread Ray. I am very sorry!! Your threads are really great by the way. Alot of good info. I will start a new lap tapper thread.

[Rayzcane]

No problem, Tom! I agree that it is good to start a new thread when the subject changes drastically. I imagine that most folks here don't give a hoot about lapstyle playing. A new subject with that title will allow those who are interested to zero in on this small aspect of touchstyle..

Ray