Are we really shifting the standard guitar style?

[Adrian Dupree]

Are we? Tapping is really not common IMO. Maybe the shift in guitar style is very gradual? In this article, it says that we are eventually going to make the art of tapping like the art of picking or strumming a guitar. How true is this? I am not trying to say that tapping is not practical. I am trying to investigate if what the press is stating is valid or not. Read some parts of the article (you can skim it) just to get the main idea and then read the last few paragraphs under the heading "What does it all mean?" at the very end:

http://www.megatar.com/english/touchstyle/History/history.html

This is rather interesting because I never thought that tapping would grow. Hmm..

Adrian

[rjgoos]

I think you need to separate 1. tapping as a technique being added to the skill set by users of regular acoustic or electric guitars, 2. and the world of specialized tapping/touchstyle instruments.

Regarding 1: perhaps someone else is more qualified to respond, but it seems to me that tapping is increasingly included in the skill set of regular guitar players.


Regarding 2: Let's be honest. NAMM reports that there are more than two million guitars sold in the USA each year. In round numbers, the number of specialized tapping/touchstyle instruments sold per year is literally in the range of 0.01-0.02% of that value. You can interpret these statistics either in a positive or a negative way. The negative interpretation is that the world of Stick/Warr/Megatar/Krappy/Solene is an obscure musical backwater. The positive interpretation is that there is considerable room for growth.

[Adrian Dupree]

Originally posted by rjgoos
I think you need to separate 1. tapping as a technique being added to the skill set by users of regular acoustic or electric guitars, 2. and the world of specialized tapping/touchstyle instruments.

Regarding 1: perhaps someone else is more qualified to respond, but it seems to me that tapping is increasingly included in the skill set of regular guitar players.


Regarding 2: Let's be honest. NAMM reports that there are more than two million guitars sold in the USA each year. In round numbers, the number of specialized tapping/touchstyle instruments sold per year is literally in the range of 0.01-0.02% of that value. You can interpret these statistics either in a positive or a negative way. The negative interpretation is that the world of Stick/Warr/Megatar/Krappy/Solene is an obscure musical backwater. The positive interpretation is that there is considerable room for growth.

One or two out of every thousand guitars are tapping instruments. This makes sense yes.

Tapping instruments do have potential IMO. They seem more versatile than guitars. Some musicians can't seem to form a band efficiently. Therefore, the tapping instruments can provide accompanyment. They are also portable and somewhat affordable like the guitar.

I guess that I would agree with your statements. However, the increase in use of tapping seems minute. I wonder what percentage of guitarists actually know about touch-style tapping?

Adrian

[Adrian Dupree]

I meant 1 or 2 guitars out of 10,000.

Adrian

[TheEclectic]

I wonder what percentage of guitarists actually know about touch-style tapping?

Much to my surprise I have found that few of the guitar and bass players I know are familiar with tapping instruments - even some of the "gear heads". Evan at music stores people give me odd looks when I inquire about tap instruments.

I think that tap is just too darn hard for the average guy – you really have to put in the hours to start seeing any type of reward. Also, there is a rhythmic / voicing issue that I think does not appeal to many string players. I think that most people of the tap guitar musical mindset take up keyboard. From a voicing point of view, Classical guitar and Fingerstyle players are probably best equipped to transition to tap as they are used to focusing on both melody and harmony in their playing.

In addition, there are not big super highways like the bass and guitar guys have for tap players to follow – tap players pretty much have to create their own path and that takes drive and discipline. I am one – I am using a nonstandndard tap tuning and using TablEdit to create music for me to study is very time consuming.

[glints-collide]

Actually I think it's spreading!

Every touchguitarist has his friends and family and even this spreads the popularity. And of course it grows because of gigs and internet.

I think I had started earlier if I encountered touchguitars
sooner. If just one TG would hang in every musicstore in the big cities, shurely some guy would pick it up. I think the main reason for the low popularity is that they are so hard to find and one needs to put a lot of effort to even know where to get it.

Let's look on the positive side: This keeps our tapping world free from all these posers who just buy a guitar
to impress the local girls with some boring music.


Today there are little cells scattered everywhere
on the world, but they keep growing and growing in the shadows. And someday the world will be ours! Muhaha! :-)

[AlanKroeger]

Sorry Old thread and first post
Guitar player for about forty year and plenty of non playing years between then and now. So finally digging in and getting touchstyle going after many years of being aware of it, attempting it, and listening to it.

So back to the main topic...

I think while touchstyle has certainly made inroads to the main stream, it is still mostly not much more then a parlor trick and a novelty item.
This could change but it needs to become more of a mainstream item, "What the heck do I mean by that?"

Well most touchstylist use their tools to show how advanced they are and that is fine. But making the music played and performed on it makes it less accessible to the beginning player.

What needs to happen is for some singer/songwriter or soloist in a mainstream band to take up the instrument as their main instrument and not relegate it to being a novelty.
There are indeed people trying to bring it into the mainstream but are they making it accessible to the masses pricewise and musically, that is the question.

There are ways that could make this happen and here is what I think they are presented in as loosely defined manner as I can manage to keep it.

If you want to bring it into the mainstream you need to play music that the main listening public is interested in not just the touchstyle or niche audiences. It needs to be done well and I won't define "well" as more then what the listening public considers "well"
That could mean a lot of things and since I am not what I would call the main listening public I won't try to define that, as I would likely be wrong.

I get the feeling that most touchstyle players are more mature, not old, but certainly musically mature.
So I wonder if that is making the music less relevant to the general public.

Likely what the existing and new players need to do is to help create a unique voice for the instrument. Touchstyle needs to be more instantly recognizable to the average listener. So that voice needs to be found and promoted. You can't force such things they just have to be found, but anyone could go exploring for it.

I still figure one thing that would help is if some singer/songwriter took one of the touchstyle instruments up. A hotshot shredder type could take it up and give it some visibility. But if what that person plays is very difficult then the young wannabe's won't necessarily follow that lead.

So here are some of my criticisms and suggestion. Don't take them wrong as I am aware that many here could blow me away technically and in raw skills. I only mean it in a constructive way hopefully I can follow my own advice.

If you are borrowing from Stanley Jordan then try to do something different then and more current then say "Autumn Leaves" or "Little Wing"
I love those tunes too but it does get a little old just look at how many versions are up at youtube. I think maybe not using drum-machines might not be a bad idea either.
Maybe use the instrument tocreate the rhythm using a looper. Listen to Andre LaFosse's Glitch techniques with the Echoplex.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=6988746
or here
http://www.altruistmusic.com/edp.html
Nope a unique voice and some accessibility is what needs to be addressed. If you can or could sing then perhaps you should. If you are a composer with songwriter leanings that might be good. If you have to then team up with some who can sing... well.
Try to play more current and popular tunes that might get things moving for touchstyle playing. If you are a young partier then try playing your instrument at get togethers and increase the level of interest and be sure to play tunes they want to hear.

Thats about it I can think of at the moment am I 100% ontrack.. probably not. But I think there is something to what I said here and I mean it to be taken in a friendly constructive way. Hopefully it inspires rather then creates enmity.

[rjgoos]

You've created no enmity with me. Such soul-searching is common in the tapping world. How does tapping make the "mainstream"? How does a Stick/Warr/Megatar become as well-known as a Stratocaster? Will it take a superstar with a Stick/Warr/Megatar on MTV or VH1? Do we need a $300 tapper for sale in the Musician's Friend catalog? Such questions have been discussed a lot over the years.

Perhaps what we need is a superstar tapper...with a cowboy hat. Country-western is much less fragmented than rock. It has been theorized that the day of the superstar rock band, the day of the Bruce Springsteen or U2 or Rolling Stones, is over (http://tinyurl.com/2acqju).

[AlanKroeger]

Originally posted by rjgoos
Perhaps what we need is a superstar tapper...with a cowboy hat. Country-western is much less fragmented than rock. It has been theorized that the day of the superstar rock band, the day of the Bruce Springsteen or U2 or Rolling Stones, is over (http://tinyurl.com/2acqju). [/B]

I figure that you are probably right as far as how fragmented the music market it. So maybe a broader range of styles and venues is required. Can't see why a touchstyle instrument couldn't be used for C&W. Strange market though most of it sounds like rock with Stetsons even fans think that one.
You probably noticed that I barely mentioned styles, because that is a hard one to figure these days.
Here is a tune I want to tackle tap style and yes I haven't even started. It does seem to be widely played as far as modern tunes go.

John Mayer "Neon"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AzsEzD2fVwE

As a PS I figured I would mention Ravi Shankar's Daughter to further demonstrate the fragmentation that exist in the market.
Here is a video of her no touchstyle but she is playing with Joshua Bell pretty nice.
Anoushka Shankar with Joshua Bell:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3l74LDmxmc4
I feel bad for the younger folks who want to be stars it is indeed just getting harder to do then it was previously.

[Tom Drinkwater]

Hey Jay, I think that the bassist for the Oak Ridge Boys plays a Warr but I don't know if he played it for them or just his solo stuff.
To throw out my own comment/opinion about mainstreaming touchstyle, I think that price is definitely a huge factor. Most players who start young get a guitar for Christmas. No parent is going to drop a couple grand on an instrument for their kid. Could you imagine buying your kid a piano or a Paul Reed Smith for there first instrument? Heck no. Unless a company like Yamaha or Fender gets ahold of the tapping idea we'll never see a $300 tapper in Musicians Friend. Of course Ibanez does have an 8 string now. You know what they say about being careful what you wish for though... It could be the greatest thing or it could put all of the little guys like Megatar, Warr and Stick out of business and I sure as heck don't want that. I do agree that touchstyle is unaccessible to alot of people. I look at touchstyle like I look at harp. It's amazing to play and listen to and all of the professional player are superb. I can't possibly count all of the really bad professional guitarists I have heard. Another reason that touchstyle isn't really mainstream is that it lend itself particularly well to solo performance. That's not popular nowadays with MTV. The music that really sounds great on it isn't popular with the kids who are 'buying' music. Picture if you will a pimple faced 13 year old pirating Bob Culbertson CD's off the internet. Not likely. Any who, I will step down off from my soap box now. Welcome to the tapping club Alan Kroeger, where at least for now the cost of membership is still steep and the music is all above average.

[Miles Copeland]

This is an interesting thread to chime in on. In fact, it's probably the basis of my earlier post on "how do you choose how many strings you want?" (which led to other things I won't get into here).

How can tapping be mainstream when there are so many different models to choose from?

It's almost like the tap guitar was meant to be an outlaw's instrument: people come up with their own tunings, their own string sets. It doesn't have the lengthy history other stringed instruments have (heck, the other outlaw instrument would be the modern American drumset, since everyone can configure it anyway s/he likes - but there's a methodology invested into its technique) so for now there appears to be no standard. And without the standard, how could you get the average human being to be interested?

I've never seen a Fender Stratocaster pushed on a kid that was in C tuning. A standard configuration would be the first step in legitimizing the tap instrument. I think Traktor's adherence to the bass strings set up like a 6-string bass in a positive step in the right direction because then at least half of the instrument would be familiar to anyone who played bass. However, this doesn't always work for all people.

I've always wondered why on a guitar you had that B string - because up until then everything was in a nice fourths arrangement, yet it is so ingrained into the pedagogy that you can't argue those points. Tap instruments need a standard, but given the way the tapping community already is, this could take generations.

[AlanKroeger]

As to why the third instead of a fourth I always found it handy and to a minor extent an occasional irritation. But mostly I figure it is just a tuning like any other tuning just not as harmonious as other chord tunings. It is basically a compromised E minor 7th chord or that is how I view it. I assume the teachers of the instrument in ancient times just went along with it so there would be a standard, thus avoiding confusion from multiple standards. The lute has a similar tuning with the third appearing between the third and fourth string. But lute tuning is not absolute either standards help where knowledge transfer is concerned. Such things are not as necessary in the digital age, where near instant communications exists, as it was in the more distant past.

So concerning the Ibanez 8 string and number of strings that seems like a way to promote touchstyle playing. To me as primarily a guitar player 8 strings would work out as a nice configuration. I see it as 8 fingers and 8 string a nice match. More then 8 becomes a nice optional set of strings and could be a convenience. Since I am still just using a guitar and have too many years using the accepted tuning standard an 8 string guitar is a nice step towards an extended touchstyle instrument.

If I go to a dedicated touchstyle instrument I would probably consider the Megatar or I could just go with an 8 string like the Ibanez. The pricing is a fair match plus I still like to play non touchstyle too.

Yes I am just staying with a standard guitar set up for touchstyle playing at the moment (Gibson SG) I also use an ancient Ovation I have acoustically to practice on (Thinline Balladeer 1979) I was thinking about try to do some on an old Takamine 12 string but decided to first flatten the neck before proceeding on that possibility.

So I haven't yet decided which dedicated touchstyle instrument to go for but would prefer a shortscale instrument. I don't have large hands but find that to be both an advantage and a disadvantage at the same time. Advantage is that shortscale instrument and high frets are a great fit for my hands. The disadvantage is that some super stretched chords are a near impossibility to use in a fluid fashion. I learned to bring the thumb around for big stretches so I mostly have dealt with the smaller hands issue. Actually my hands aren't tiny they medium as that is my glove size. So my hand size issue aren't that big a deal just no huge advantage. :D

[Tom Drinkwater]

Wow, I just read my last post and it came off as kind of snooty. I am sorry for that, since the writers went on strike I have had to write my own material.
I believe that the internet is helping us a great deal as a community. Having a superstar bring the music to the masses would help, but I think that having a zillion videos of real people on YouTube tapping up a storm is even better. A few things that we can do as players and enthusiasts to bring touchstyle to the people is display some of our favorite videos on our myspace pages. That alone would demand at least some attention. We could encourage more players that we jam with to try the technique. We could turn our nonmusician friends on to some of our favorite players. We could buy more albums from our favorite players and give them to our friends and family as gifts. Someone could start a tapping enthusiast site for all of us to share ideas on...thanx Traktor!!!!
Just a few ideas, I might even try some of them myself.

[traktor]

Originally posted by Miles Copeland
I've always wondered why on a guitar you had that B string ... <snip>... I think that, many hundred years ago, in Spain where they had a lot of guitars, there were no steel strings. The strings were made of horsehair or 'catgut' or some organic thing, and so the strings didn't have high tension either. And ... there were no amps.

Not much sustain in an instrument like this. And there were *lots* of instruments like this. So, to get a full sound, they discovered that lots of strumming with lots of open strings, and also thumping on the 'pickguard' or the wooden box, gave a full sound.

In order to make lots of strumming with open strings work with lots of the E-modal songs they played, tweaking the B-string helps make it work out.

(And my guess is that the reason they played lots of songs in E was because that's the note(s) that worked out well on a guitar of about that size with strings of that type at those tensions that they used.)

So I say ... it was Spaniards did it.

But as soon as you begin playing by touch, on metal strings, with amps, then the need for harmonized open strings vanishes.

And playing in straight fourths allows you to learn one set of chord shapes (instead of three variations depending on where the guitar's B-string falls). And it allows you to learn one set of scale patterns (instead of three variations).

It makes learning and playing more coherent and clear, because it's simpler. And humans work well with simple.

That's my 2 cents. It was Spaniards.

[AlanKroeger]

Originally posted by Tom Drinkwater
Wow, I just read my last post and it came off as kind of snooty. I am sorry for that, since the writers went on strike I have had to write my own material.

I wouldn't take it that way nobody who is involved in touchstyle could possibly have a closed mind, that is indeed my sentiment, not possible yet... :)

Originally posted by Tom Drinkwater
I believe that the internet is helping us a great deal as a community. Having a superstar bring the music to the masses would help, but I think that having a zillion videos of real people on YouTube tapping up a storm is even better. A few things that we can do as players and enthusiasts to bring touchstyle to the people is display some of our favorite videos on our myspace pages. That alone would demand at least some attention.

Indeed it has even if it has also fragmented the market, gotta take the good with the bad cause the good is very good. The bad is really just an inconvenience and not insurmountable.


Originally posted by Tom Drinkwater
We could encourage more players that we jam with to try the technique. We could turn our nonmusician friends on to some of our favorite players. We could buy more albums from our favorite players and give them to our friends and family as gifts. Someone could start a tapping enthusiast site for all of us to share ideas on...thanx Traktor!!!!

Yes indeed it is so lets keep challenging each other and pushing things a bit. Don't want to be operating in a vacuum, right. :)

Originally posted by Tom Drinkwater
Just a few ideas, I might even try some of them myself. [/B]
Please challenge my ideas but be kind I am not getting any younger :D

[AlanKroeger]

Originally posted by traktor
That's my 2 cents. It was Spaniards.
I defer partially to your educated opinion and add that we will never fully know who spread the standard tuning virus :D
But it was sensible and is still useful but it is not absolute. Fortunately I was not taught, early on, that 6 string guitar tuning was an absolute.

Not actually related but my grandfather used to tune his guitar to a chord I know he didn't say so... But being up there now I found that I used the same trick on my nephews so we didn't have to listen to childish noise produced by some young, hopefully, budding future guitarist.
Anecdotally Grampa informed my brother and I that of his many grandchildren that only my brother and myself plus two other cousins showed any respect in handling the instrument. The rest regardless of being tuned to a chord tended to just brutalize the instrument and he inevitably had to put it away before they destroyed it playing El Kabong, a very popular character at that time :D

I found noted a similar thing based on respectful and thoughtful handling of the instrument that you could pretty much determine who might be a player later on in life and who, most likely, would not be with children. Naturally some level of instruction about handling may be required but whether the instructions are followed or extended upon is quite telling.

Oh well just another semi useful thought I wanted to post even if it was not pertinent to the topic. :D

Nurture Nature some portion of both I imagine...

[Miles Copeland]

Those dang Spaniards....

[jamsire]

Standard Tuning was "conceived" by Fernando Sor. :mad:

[tapmeister]

Originally posted by AlanKroeger
I think while touchstyle has certainly made inroads to the main stream, it is still mostly not much more then a parlor trick and a novelty item.
This could change but it needs to become more of a mainstream item, "What the heck do I mean by that?"

...

Well most touchstylist use their tools to show how advanced they are and that is fine. But making the music played and performed on it makes it less accessible to the beginning player.

I think your premise is nonsense. There are hundreds of musicians in the world today making excellent music this way (what you call touchstyle, but what most of us simply call two-handed tapping). Perhaps you need to look around a bit more, and broaden your search terms.

A novelty is something that's notable merely because it's unusual. I think most of the people who have decided to make music this way, especially the composers and professional performers who have pursued careers in the real music world, deserve more credit than you are giving them. They are making music that's true to them, on instruments that speak to them, and they have millions of fans.

It seems like your point is to devalue their work ("most touchstylists use their tools to show how advanced they are" ??) and blame them for a "problem" that doesn't really exist.

The people who make music this way are innovators, not imitators. Where do you think the future lies?

Happy Tapping,
greg

PS, I don't consider the work of these people to be a novelty, so I'm not sure who you are talking about:

Steve Adelson
aNDREmu
Casey Arrillaga
Nathen Aswell
Japhlet Bire Attias
Ron Baggerman
Brian Baggett
Jennifer Batten
Nick Beggs
Pete Beggs
Michael Bernier
Mattias Betti
Michael Bianco
Flint Blade
Jason Blake
Jason Brock
Brett Bottomly
Bill Burke
Thierry Carpentier
Marco Cerletti
Olovier Chabasse
Emmett Chapman
Guillermo Cides
Jo Conti
Chris Crain
Bob Culbertson
Linda Cushma
Derek Dallenger
John Edmonds
Paul Edwards
Roberto Fiorrucci
Brian Kenny Fresno
Adam Fulara
Pascal Glanville
Leo Gosselin
Tom Griesgraber
Pascal Gutman
Dino Haak
Steve Hahn
Darrell Havard
Frank Heim
Remco Helbers
Greg Howard
David Huff
Colin Jenkinson
Gary Jibilian
Frank Jolliffe
Stanley Jordan
Jim Kam
Toshiaki Kanamaru
Daniel Kane
Kevin Keith
Michael Kollwitz
kunst4life
Dale Ladouceur
Youenn Landreau
Jim Lampi
Tony Levin
Steve Lynch
Sean Malone
Fergus Marsh
Colin Marston
Rob Martino
Stuart Mawler
Carrie Melbourne
Andrea Moneta
Guy Muffait
John Myung
Richie Nieto
Alex Nahas
Tony Novak
Irene Orleansky
David Parr
Jeff Pearce
André Pelat
Guido Ponzini
Glenn Poorman
Nima Rezai
Teed Rockwell
Matt Rogers
Jo Ruffier
Hugo Santos
Daniel Schell
Don Schiff
Steve Sobiech
Mattias Sorof
Mauricio Sotelo
Diego Souto
Virna Splendore
Fred-Érick Souvé
Jim Speers
Trevor Stewart
Randy Strom
Katsu Tanaka
Matt Tate
Pascal Thébault
Larry Tuttle
Akin Unver
Carlos Vamos
Rob van der Loo
Kuno Wagner
Vince Warren
Ben Weber
Mark White
Sebastian Woscoboinik
Jim Wright

(sorry to those I may have inadvertantly left anyone out of the list, as I know there are many, many more)

[AlanKroeger]

Originally posted by tapmeister
I think your premise is nonsense.
I both agree and disagree, hows that for ambiguous :)

[Tom Drinkwater]

I might be totally wrong, usually am, but I think that while there are alot of great musicians that make a living playing like us, it's still not something that you will hear on any radio station. Even on jazz stations you'll hear a good guitarist but never a brilliant Stickist. I think that was where the 'mainstream' discussion was headed. This doesn't bother me much because I am used to having to order my albums from the artist and I like the family like atmosphere of our relatively small community. How many guitarist can say they visit a forum where Steve Vai or Pat Metheny regularly posts and will speak their mind on any subject that we can think of. It's unheard of in other instrument circles. I for one am really thankful to be part of this community.

[AlanKroeger]

I know that I myself have never been mainstream and that is what made me decide to just remain active amateur many years back. However sometimes I reminisce and figure well I suppose I could have been a little more mainstream.
I love too many types and styles of music and am mostly considered eclectic.
Anecdotally I had this pointed out to me in a record store, back when they sold vinyl and some tape only, that I had eclectic taste. Why because I bought two albums at the same time. One was purchased so I could learn some of the guitar parts and another because I wanted to hear the performers that I really liked. One I could probably use the material for an amateur band I played with and the other material would just be for my amusement.
The albums... one was one of the Eagles albums, I forget which one, the other was the Gentle Giants live album. I happened to actually have liked both of them albums and artists.
So I am not targeting those who have already made up their minds about what they are doing with an instrument. But if I had wanted to be more mainstream I would have leaned towards pursuing songwriting as opposed to instrumental Jazz and Improv like I did.
:)

PS: A bit of a side note
I figure a great number of the musicians who we think of as mainstream probably also had some or more non mainstream leanings. They however most likely made a conscious decision to be more mainstream.

[PhoBucket]

Really interesting thread. The double bass has been around for literally hundreds of years, and it's tuning has only begun to be relatively standardized in the past 60 years, and there is still alot of variation. EADG is most common, but there are 3 common ways of acheiving a low C, and there is a separate tuning used in classical solo performances.

Also, I think there is a difference between being not mainstream, or novel, and being a novelty. I don't think the intention was to devalue the work of other touchstyle players, but rather to point out that there significant room for growth in market penetration, if that. Is really the goal.

[AlanKroeger]

Originally posted by PhoBucket
Also, I think there is a difference between being not mainstream, or novel, and being a novelty. I don't think the intention was to devalue the work of other touchstyle players, but rather to point out that there significant room for growth in market penetration, if that. Is really the goal.
Nope never was my intention to criticize what other players for what they play.

If people aren't interested in greater market penetration then so be that is each individuals choice, I made my own.

[PhoBucket]

I agree, Alan. And I think that the decentralization of music distribution allows non-mainstream artists to find a big enough supporting audience.

I have been working ona project with a spoken word artiist this weekend, and although we both doubt that poetry will be mainstream in the near future, that doesn't matter to her at all because she can find eenough work to support herself doing what she loves to do.

Maybe giving up spoken word and concentrating on songs would provide her with a larger audience, and thus more income, but so would working an office job. She already knows that compromising what she really wants to do for more money makes her unhappy, so she's sticking to her guns and recording material she likes.

The point I'm making is that while I think it would be wonderful if more people got into tapping, I don't think touchstyle players or manufacturers should compromise their vision for that aim. OK....now I'll stepdown off of my soapbox and stop sounding so darn haughty.

Best,
Ben

[Miles Copeland]

So I take it from this thread that players and manufacturers DO NOT want to come up with any kind of standardized instrument and remain what I referred to as "outlaw" instruments.

Then this is cool. Two-handed tapping, although very popular with many players contributing highly musical ideas on it, will remain an "out of the limelight" instrument. I'm just sticking to the idea that "mainstream" acceptance would mean some kind of standardization of the instrument. I think it's tough for a kid that wants to play something (with no prior musical experience) to also have to choose which tapping instrument to play (let alone figure a way to buy one). As I discovered with my investigation, how many strings should I use? Which tuning should I use? You mean I can't just walk into Sam Ash and pick up a method book on how to play a tap instrument?"

In a practical sense, touch-style would be difficult to pick up unlike how easy it is to get into guitar. But in an artistic sense, maybe it needs to be this way for it to be what it is.

To quote Tony Williams: "it wouldn't be jazz if it made alot of money" Or something like that.

[tapmeister]

Originally posted by AlanKroeger
Nope never was my intention to criticize what other players for what they play.

If people aren't interested in greater market penetration then so be that is each individuals choice, I made my own.
I've seen newbies come to this forum and stickist.com and stickwire every now and then, who moan and groan about how this way of making music should be more popular, etc.

To say it's "not much more than a parlor trick" is a criticism no matter how you slice it. But ever since the 1970s, when great musicians started to really dig into this method, the inspiration has come equally from the possibilities the method offered and the work of the artists who've taken it up.

Is it more difficut to tap counterpoint parts than to hold down a few strings and bang out some chords? yes (sorry, trak) So is hitting a golf ball. It's not about how difficult it is, it's about overturning the weight of a culture. Not an easy thing to do.

But please don't blame the artists. At least they're doing something about it.

And maybe you won't find them on the radio often, (a lot of Peter Gabriel songs with Stick have been on the radio over the past 30 years, though, and many Stickists have had their music on nationally syndicated stations and programs, myself included), but then maybe broadcast radio is a slowly dying medium. You will find them on YouTube, MySpace, iTunes, etc..

but if you're only searching under "touchstyle," then you will miss most of us, because most of us don't call what we do touchstyle.

Happy Tapping,
greg
http://www.youtube.com/gregplaysthestick
http://www.myspace.com/gregplaysthestick

[SteveA]

My last CD addresses this really dumb attitude. I played my Stick and recorded duos and trios with nine of the planet's great guitarists and we simply "made music" plain and simple. No novelty, it was just about documenting my concepts and creating art with these special players. You don't hear tapping, you hear tunes and exploration. Everyone who played, used their respective techniques for one goal, solid music, in my opinion. There are samples on my site. Saying this is a novelty is just nonsense, period. I'm sure others feel the same way about their music.
www.steveadelson.com

[AlanKroeger]

Originally posted by SteveA
My last CD addresses this really dumb attitude. I played my Stick and recorded duos and trios with nine of the planet's great guitarists and we simply "made music" plain and simple. No novelty, it was just about documenting my concepts and creating art with these special players. You don't hear tapping, you hear tunes and exploration. Everyone who played, used their respective techniques for one goal, solid music, in my opinion. There are samples on my site. Saying this is a novelty is just nonsense, period. I'm sure others feel the same way about their music.
www.steveadelson.com

Sorry but some may have misread me or what I was driving at. However that is more likely my fault since I was intentionally painting very broadly and lumping together things you might consider parlor tricks. However two hand tapping/touchstyle isn't a parlor trick it takes too much effort to get it working at all. There are some things people are doing out there though...

But in your post you did say the magic words "made music" and that is the spirit of what I intended.

Mostly just make music and worry a little less about the category. :)

[tapmeister]

Originally posted by AlanKroeger
However two hand tapping/touchstyle isn't a parlor trick it takes too much effort to get it working at all. There are some things people are doing out there though...

I think if you have a little musical talent, a well setup instrument, and the time to practice a bit, it doesn't take all that much effort to get it going. You have to walk before you can run, though.

At my seminars, all the students, even the beginners, are playing things they would have thought difficult just a couple of days before.

It really comes down to the quality of the instrument. If it doesn't play well, then it's going to be harder to play. That's why Emmett doesn't compromise on the setup or the structure and design that make a good setup possible.

To get the most out of the method, a full-range instrument really helps, and full-range tapping instruments, with a consistent low action over longer scale lengths, are not nearly as easy to build as short scale instruments. If they were, we'd see a lot more of them out there.

Happy Tapping,
Greg
http://www.myspace.com/gregplaysthestick
http://www.youtube.com/gregplaysthestick

[AlanKroeger]

Originally posted by tapmeister
I think if you have a little musical talent, a well setup instrument, and the time to practice a bit, it doesn't take all that much effort to get it going. You have to walk before you can run, though.

Guess I am a lucky guy, I do good setups on decent instrument, or just had enough of them to end up with a few good ones. :D
Yes it's not really hard to get started I made amazing progress by simply being determined and focussed for two weeks.
I suppose you may be right about people trying to learn on less then ideal instrument. I may have an advantage by having been able to sift through a lot of different instrument over a 40 year period. Bound to find a few good ones after that length of time. Plus at different times I have had bad G.A.S., I lost count as to how many, around 25 different guitars in 40 year. Definitely, others have had more. But a decently high number for a guy who decided he would not try to go professional at a reasonably early age. :D

PS: Greg love your youtube version of "Goodbye Porkpie Hat" always loved that tune. Particularly the Roland Kirk version on, I believe, Return of the 2000 pound man. Though I might be wrong as I no longer have a copy of that album, last copy disappeared about 20 years back and hasn't yet been replaced. Might have to find a non DRM downloadable version,

Thanks :)

[lactose]

It kind of seems like the creativity level of society rises and falls in a cycle. If you grew up like I did, starting out with Emerson Lake and Palmer, Yes, Genesis, Kansas, etc, the 80s and 90s may have been painful for you.

I am thinking and hoping that the we are entering another more creative phase. I am definitely finding more interesting music the past few years (not on the radio), and I have become aware of lots of instruments that I did not previously know about. And see a new instument idea almost every week. I would think the time has never been better to be an unusual instrument maker.

I have been dragging my Megatar around, and everywhere I go, people ask about it and want to play it. I have had offers to buy my 2x4 with frets, which doesn't even work right. So I know there is considerable interest. Probably not everyone can drop $1500 on an instrument they are not sure about though. My plan is to start gigging with mine, maybe this year, once I can actually play a few songs. It is really strange to be starting over and not be fluent on an instrument, but it is also fun to venture into new territory.

I am not particularly concerned if tapping catches on in general, though I think it will. I just get excited when I start to think how my possibilities have expanded from normal guitar, and with some work I will be able to create some new neat stuff.

FWIW I think most people are using the Ibanez 8 string as a super detuned metal guitar (like Meshuggah). But I imagine it might make a decent tapper.

There are some component issues that need to be solved to make these instruments possible. Bridges tuners, headless parts. And for people who make instruments to sell, they have to constantly worry about stepping on all the stupid patents out there (we are finally starting to see some patent reform, things have gotten so bad). So there are some hurdles for these instrument manufacturers.

[AlanKroeger]

Yes I was looking at your 2 x 4 project Lactose and was impressed, pretty cool. Made me wonder if I should consider converting a cheapo Lap Steel I made little use of to a tapper. One thing that keeps me reluctant to go full tapper is the long scale, I only have medium hands sure can manage up to 30-32". Unfortunately my playing becomes decidedly less fluid beyond 30" So I hate to, knowingly, handicap myself when I just need a shorter scale. Yes there is the Alto stick, with a nice sample from Don Schiff, available. Still I am chronically pragmatic and am reluctantly to go with anything overspecialized, even if I am sure it would be good.
Probably why I am looking at Megatar or an 8 string guitar as my base tapper.

Here is something I was playing around with that to my mind might comes off as a "Parlor Trick", oops and it would be me perpetrating that trick too :D

I have a shortscale bass that could be a little more worked to become a tapper. Needs to have some fret leveling done but been avoiding it, not my favorite job. So I did try it briefly but this is what I tried.
Get my guitar and put it on, adjust the straps on the bass so the two instruments won't bang against each other. I found I could tap a few bass parts with the bass pointed forward and I could do chords and melody lines on the guitar in nearly regular position. I figure I will back to it later as I would rather improve things a bit more on just one instrument. Nice I have less overlap issues to deal with and extend the range I am playing within.

Still I suddenly got this visualization of a tubby gray haired old man doing some silly stuff in a youtube video. Aieee I think I will pass on that one. I can well imagine the youtube flames I would get, too funny :D
So maybe I should do something more dignified like getting a guitar performance stand and avoid such an undignified visualization :D

PS: I agree with you on what the target user of an 8 string Ibanez is. But it might be okay would have to check one out in person, not a web purchase item.

[lactose]

One thing that keeps me reluctant to go full tapper is the long scale
I know what you mean. My 2x4 is 25.5" and is easier to play. I play bass in a band so I am used to the 34" scale. But when I build my own I will probably build it around 25". It is a matter of trading the easier play for the better bass tone. I do know from experience with my 2x4, that trying to have low pitched bass strings on a short scale is a little tricky. Tension will dictate the tuning. On the plus side, finding strings 25" long is no problem.

I need to post an info page on my website, discussing what I learned from the 2x4 experiment.

[Tom Drinkwater]

Too work around the overspecialized issue you try a double neck. It's pretty easy to find a guitar/bass on line now for not much$$$$. You could set it up to play touchstyle and like a normal guitar/bass too. Best of both worlds. Or you could custom make one through Warmoth. I bought a couple of cheap basses and guitars to convert to double neck for touchstyle a while but haven't worked on them yet as I have been trying to create enough product for my online store. Learning a double neck seems like it may be easier to learn too.
There are a couple of short scale instruments on the market too, the koyabu board is around 30" and the short scale Box Guitars are around 25. If you were thinking of making a short scale tapper you wouldn't have a hard time finding strings, I use a Danelectro 30" six string bass and I can get strings from Fender and Ernie Ball. Or you could use regular guitar strings as well. I really like the short scales as I have smaller hands too. If you learn to move your hands rather than stretching to grab notes you will find it much easier to tap. I get around my Megatar just fine.

[AlanKroeger]

Originally posted by Tom Drinkwater
Too work around the overspecialized issue you try a double neck. It's pretty easy to find a guitar/bass on line now for not much$$$$. You could set it up to play touchstyle and like a normal guitar/bass too. Best of both worlds. Or you could custom make one through Warmoth. I bought a couple of cheap basses and guitars to convert to double neck for touchstyle a while but haven't worked on them yet as I have been trying to create enough product for my online store. Learning a double neck seems like it may be easier to learn too.

Yeah those are options I am considering but I have time to make up my mind. Pretty satisfied with what I currently have 8 strings might good enough satisfy me too. At this point I am just investigating what is out there and figuring out what I really want.

[traktor]

Originally posted by Tom Drinkwater
... <snip> ... There are a couple of short scale instruments on the market too, the koyabu board is around 30" and the short scale Box Guitars are around 25. ...<snip>... I came into a couple of new Box Guitars this last year, and sold one of them. If interested in the Box Guitar -- which is quite well made and has nice tone -- I just put the other new Box Guitar up on our EBay Megatar Store (http://stores.ebay.com/megatarstore/), very nicely discounted, as I'm clearing out our older inventory. It comes with a gigbag, and the Box Warranty, as it is a new and unused instrument. It is a sunburst instrument, and the finish is very nicely done.

[AlanKroeger]

Originally posted by traktor
I came into a couple of new Box Guitars this last year, and sold one of them. If interested in the Box Guitar -- which is quite well made and has nice tone -- I just put the other new Box Guitar up on our EBay Megatar Store (http://stores.ebay.com/megatarstore/), very nicely discounted, as I'm clearing out our older inventory. It comes with a gigbag, and the Box Warranty, as it is a new and unused instrument. It is a sunburst instrument, and the finish is very nicely done.
Hey traktor thanks for the heads up but let me ask what the scale length is on your megatars. I rather like what I see maybe that will be the way I go.

[traktor]

Hi,

I just posted the scale length information on another thread (http://www.tappistry.org/forum/showthread.php?postid=8911#post8911).

[Kirklandish]

As someone who is interested in joining the legion of "tappers" out there, I found this to be very interesting post. There are too many ideas for me to comment on all of them

With internet resources like YouTube and Myspace it is very easy for musicians to promote and distibute there music. I think it is cool that all types of musicians from the professional to amatuer, vistuoso to beginner can share there music with the world. I think the main thing to remember when playing is to have fun and be thankful of the gift of music.

I would love it if I could try out a Stick or Megatar at Guitar Center, but in a way I think it is cool that there is no standard, b/c IMHO, overstandarization leads to snagnation. I see this as an uncharted territory and I am glad there is no standard musical form.

I see a cool community of musicians where the professional players, hobbyists, total beginners, geniuses and instrument makers all share ideas. I dont see that very often (though drummers do it all the time:) ).

[Jesús Auñón]

Let me tell ya dis:
Blue will always be blue.
Pat Metheny told me he has six different instruments in one single guitar. One per string.
The standar guitar tunning is a good aproach to traditional music. For me is the same when somebody comes with a different musical notation pretending to be more perfect than standar notation. Do we need somebody translating all the musical tradition into a new languagge?
A guitar is a guitar, independently what you add to it, I mean number of strings or tuning. The real revolutionary was Les Paul. He applied electricity to the guitar with success. Nothing more is been done about this. Even the "unnameble" pretending he created a new instrument. Just take a look to the first electric guitar. It is just the same old thing.
I know some people would be offended, but nothing is new. Technic may be something new, but you can use it on standar guitar, you don´t need a new instrument to develope it. Even it's more difficult to use tapping technic on guitar than on specific tapping instruments, or touchstyle if you want it.
And please, be respectfull with the people. "Spaniard" can be an insult to a lot of people (more than 400.000.000 people in the world may be offended). If you want to be respected, be respectfull with others. ¿O.K.?
Them a go tired fe see my face...
Sorry for my poor english (from Jamaica).

[Tom Drinkwater]

Guitar is guitar is guitar. That's my take on it. Big guitar, little guitar. Tuned high, tuned low. Acoustic and electric...its all the same. I love all stringed instruments the same. I just play guitar more than any other instrument. I love to see innovations but I laugh when somebody introduces an electric guitar or like instrument and actually thinks that they invented something. I make unusual instruments but I haven't to my knowledge actually invented anything yet. My favorite instrument that I have made is a Laptar, but I know I didn't invent that. I think that we should give Jeff Healey an honorary patent on the Laptar. I also see the need for using different tunings, I do it occasionally on acoustic guitar too. I even think that there is validity in sticking to a favorite tuning. I think I may apply for a patent on D-A-D-F#-A-D.:D

[jamsire]

Originally posted by Tom Drinkwater
I think I may apply for a patent on D-A-D-F#-A-D.:D

ok - that made me laugh giggle

[Jesús Auñón]

You can also try B A G D A D. Really disonant. Sounds like apocalypse.

Tschüss :)

[moebiux]

A very nice topic!

Tapping is still too exotic for mainstreem. It seems to hard for the average "instrument user" and you have to make a lot of choices about things that you skip with a Fender Strato setup. :rolleyes:

One of the choices i have made is not to use a special tapping instrument. :eek:

I have tried out a tapping instrument (a Megatar; nice) but it shifts you so way out of guitar playing that its more like keyboards. I cant play guitar with a tapping instrument. I like tapping but as a powerfull extension of technique on stringed instruments.

Still a mainstreem guitar is not a good choice for me for developing tapping; 7 or 8 string are way better. Yes Jesús i know 6 is enough... :p

Right know i own a Conklin 8 string guitar and a Conklin 7 string bass. I tune them in straight fourth tunning (EADGCF) above and beyond.

Everything its a personal choice/path. :)

Just my 2 cents,
Love & Peace

[Tom Drinkwater]

How is that Conklin 8 string? I have seen a guy on youtube called Don Maloney play one and was very impressed. He has the standard guitar scale one and the bass sounds awesome. He plays slap bass and guitar at the same time on it. Of course his axe is like $5000, every option possible. I like the idea of an 8 string for a main instrument because of Don Schiff. It is a bass, a guitar and a tapper all in one. If you didn't need the bass tones 6 strings would be more than enough.

[Kev_IMO]

When I first started learning guitar, my biggest concern was finding out the correct way to do everything. Once I got comfortable with the instrument, I was more concerned with finding new and different ways to do everything.
The cool thing about tapping, is that it's all pretty new and different, but that makes it hard to start on as a first instrument. I think tapping will stay something that existing musicians learn instead of something that potential musicians start with.
I actually just got into tapping last winter not to play 2 parts on guitar, but to play guitar and keyboards at the same time. Lately, after being inspired by a couple videos on youtube (that site will change music more than anything!) I've started learning how to play drum parts with my feet on a midi pedalboard.
If anything worth sharing comes of it, I'll post something on youtube, otherwise I'll just play for my own amusement :)
But back to the topic of tapping being mainstream, it's a matter of the average joe public just knowing what it is. That's where youtube and other video sites come in. Every time we make a video of ourselves tapping and put it online, somebody who never heard of the technique before will potentially stumble across it and maybe think "hey, that's pretty cool"

[moebiux]

Don Maloney is one of my favs. His instrument has separate pickup for bass/trebble and then he sends it two diferent amps.
Its like Charlie Hunter with his Novax guitar but with less diference in string gauges. Charlie uses 3 bass strings and then 5 guitar strings. I dont like this "jump".

You can see my conklin here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/cano.sola/01ConklinCustomSidewinder

PD: To stay on topic contact me at cano_sola @ hotmail.com

[arsacane]

That's a beautifull instrument! Really gorgeous.

[Tom Drinkwater]

That is one sweet looking guitar. What is it tuned to? F#?

[midivox]

Hi Tappers,
How many never fingerpick, let alone tap? The cool thing about the guitar is learning new guitar technigues and styles is enless. Some guitarists always want to learn new things, experiement, take up a new style or even invent or expand a style.

I think its Yes that Two hand tapping even on a normal guitar expands what a guitar is and what it can do. When you go on or up to guitars with extra strings, then you enter that WOW Factor. Everyone wants to know what kind o guitar thingie you have and how are you doing what you do.

Even simple two hand tapping can be beautiful and ear and eye plesing. Todays Tapping Artists are like the Segovias and Chet Atkins of Tapping.

As some have stated, entry level tapping instruments as fas as extra stringed guitars go, do not exist. But anyone can learn basic Tapping on any guitar.

Much of Pop Music is Monkey See and Monkey Do, so as more people get into Tapping, that spreads the Wave.

Happy Tapping
MidiVox