General Questions about Touchguitars

[TheEclectic]

All,

I have wanted a touch guitar since I first heard Tony Levin playing with King Crimson back in the 80’s. My desire has finally overtaken me and I am close to taking the plunge. I will need to sell a few of my guitars to raise the money for a touchguitar, so I want to get as much knowledge as I can before making a purchase.

I am seriously considering commissioning a 12 string touch guitar from Krappy Guitars and have a few questions. I was close to bidding on one on E-bay recently and found this forum when doing research. I opted to get one made for me instead of paying close to the new price for a used instrument.

I am open to other makers that offer products in the same price range.

My background is mostly classical guitar with some electric. I am into MIDI guitar with my Godin Grand Concert Classical as well as my electric. I typically get about 1 hour of practice in per day (job, kids and such take up the rest of my time).


Here are my questions:

Tuning
I guess that I need to decide tuning up-front. I read about tunings on the Megatar site, and see that they like the bassbottom tuning. From doing visualization, it seems to me that I would like to keep the left hand on the left hand of the instrument and the right hand on the right hand side. I have thought about mirroring the strings so that the highest strings are on the outsides and go to lower strings as one progresses to the middle of the neck. This does not seem to be the norm and I wonder why? General opinions on tunings would be appreciated.

I really do not understand this reaching across the fretboard bit (playing b left hand bass on the right side of the neck and right hand melody on the left side of the neck). It is tough enough on classical guitar, it seem that it would be real hard on a 12 string instrument. This seems to be the norm, so there must be a reason for it. Inquiring minds want to know…

ToneWoods
Woods are a big deal with guitars, but I have not seen any real discussion of it on this forum. Ebony fingerboards are supposed to be best for MIDI guitars. Mahogany, Maple or Ash tend to make good body woods. Are there any woods preferences for the body, neck and fingerboard of a touch guitar?

String Spacing
I think I read somewhere the 5/16” is the standard string spacing. Does anybody go larger? I am a big guy and I have big fingers – with guitars it has always been wider is better. I find some electrics and steel string acoustics almost impossible to play due to the 1-11/16” nut width (which is about 5/16” string spacing).

MIDI
Has anyone ever used the GraphTech Ghost Hexpander system? This uses piezo saddles and feeds the signals into a circuit board. It is better at tracking than a GK-3 (which I have used on my electric) and it cost less than the Stick Enterprises version of the GK-3. I see where the Megatar has GraphTech saddles, but is says they are special made. It seems going midi-piezo would be a natural thing for Megatar.

Sustainer Pickup
I have a Sustainiac on my electric, which gives infinite sustain. It works well with my VG-8, VG-88 and GI-20. I am thinking of using one on the melody side. I saw where there was a post where someone used a sustainer, but it does not seem very popular.

Fingernails
Being a classical guitarist, right hand fingernail length is a big issue. Does one need short fingernails to play a touchstyle guitar. (I imagine that the answer is “yes”, but maybe someone out there has classical guitar nails). I have started to practice a bit on my electric and it seems possible, but I can tell that the fingernails are getting in the way.

Thanks in advance.

[traktor]

Hello, TheEclectic,

I can provide some info on three of the questions you raised.


Tuning
--------
On the Mobius Megatar site, go to library, then click through to the 'Documents' site, then to 'Newsletters' and then read Daniel Schell's article about Crossed and Uncrossed String arrangements and about 'Mirror' tunings, which will discuss the arrangements that you are discussing.

As regards reaching across the fretboard, your reaction is totally reasonable as the intuitive truth, given your classical guitar background. And in fact, if you position any touch-style instrument as you position your classical guitar, then it will be pretty-much impossible to reach across the fretboard.

However, if you position the instrument with the tuners over your left shoulder, you will discover that a lot of things suddenly change for the better.

As an experiment, try this: Stand erect, eyes forward, and hold your left hand down at your side, palm facing forward. Then raise your hand so that your palm is directly over your left nipple. This is approximately where the left ('bass') hand would fall when instrument is correctly positioned.

You will then notice that your forearm, the back of your hand, and most of your fingers are almost in a straight line. (Though the fingers naturally curl somewhat.)

In this position the left edge of the fretboard will contact the web of your thumb where it attaches to the *rear* of your palm, and your reach from that point to your longer fingertips is probably around six inches. If you have large hands, maybe longer.

A Mobius Megatar instrument at the nut is only around four inches wide. I have small hands and easily reach across and *beyond* the fretboard. In correct upright playing position, your wrist is straight and healthy, you have a long reach, and your fingers are generally parallel to the frets, which works well.

Besides ease and wrist health, there's another advantage to correct playing position, which I'll discuss below.


Graph Tech Midi instruments
-----------------------------------
Mobius Megatar has built a half-dozen instruments using the Graph Tech 'Ghost' system, both using their lovely 'Acoustiphonic' audio output, and using the MIDI output. The system works very well, is quite robust and sturdy, and one of these days we'll get our website updated.

In the meantime, you can hear what the piezos sound like on guitar and bass, on the Graph Tech site. Download the bass and the 'Acoustiphonic' samples on this page --

http://www.graphtech.com/ghost_downloads.php

(To hear what their midi output sounds like, just listen to a synthesizer!)


Fingernails
-------------
In classical guitar (and in some guitar books) one is taught to play with the ends of the fingers. As I recall, the Mel Bay guitar books says to play "as if your fingers were little hammers."

However, in touch-style it seems to work well to play with the flats of the fingers. For one thing, when you are playing, you get the best tone when your finger plays *on* the fret, and you can feel the fret with your finger. And you can feel it better, in my opinion, when you're playing with the flats of your fingers.

Playing with the flats *may* give you more control over keeping other strings silent.

And playing with the flats would enable a person with longish fingernails to play without cutting the fingernails.

Lasty but not Leasty, when your touch-style instrument is in correct upright playing position, and your forearm, back of hand, and fingers fall in a line, you can not only easily reach all the way across the fretboard, but you're perfectly positioned to play with the flats of your fingers, while wearing your fashionably long fingernails.


Sorry to have blathered on, but I hope you find this information useful. Good luck in your touch-style adventure. You'll find it's marvelously fun to play this way, and with the right approach, what you already know will quickly transfer.


Others here will doubtless have suggestions on some of your other excellent questions.

[rjgoos]

The "unabridged" version of Daniel Schell's tuning discussion is at:

http://www.clicmusic.be/tunings-tg.htm

I recommend section 1.4, outlining the plus-es and minus-es of the 5ths/4ths tuning versus a 4ths-4ths tuning.

Owning, or having owned, instruments by four different tapping guitar companies, I can say that they were all great, low action, good workmanship.

Do a lot of research, ask a lot of questions, but whatever your choice, I don't think you'll be disappointed.


Jay

[TheEclectic]

Thanks for the responses.

Whatever instrument I choose, it will be one that can be retrofitted with the Ghost Hexaphonic midi system once I know that I will stick with it. I would like to go midi from the start, but midi equipped touchguitars are a bit out of my price range. Just the parts for me to retrofit a 12 stringer with midi will be over $600.

traktor -
your explination of the instrument was excellent. You are right in that I was thinking that one should play on teh tips of the fingers, but now I have a much better understanding of why these instruments are setup the way that they are.

Very glad to know that I can keep my fingernails. As one classical guitarists pointed out, classical guitar forums are about the only place where one can find straight men discussing at length the nuances of nail care.

rjgoos -
I will definently read teh article. I feel that choosing my tuning is my biggest decision in selecting an instrument.

[TheEclectic]

Seeking knowledge of tuning, I turned to YouTube.com.

Most of what I saw was the Stick. I saw a few other touch guitar variants, but to my surprise I saw no Megatars – what’s up with that?

I noticed that in many instances that the hands were playing on their own side of the instrument (left hand, left side; right hand, right side). This seemed to open the door to playing melodies that were close to each other in tone – there were a few Bach pieces that I saw that really made this evident.

The “Uncrossed Mirrored fourths, bass in the middle” as described on http://www.clicmusic.be/tunings-tg.htm is what I originally envisioned and fits with the playing of the Bach pieces.

Megatar pushes their BassBottom tuning, but I would really like to see it in action. I can see where the BassBottom tuning would make it easier for a hand to go from the bass side to the melody side without having to adjust mental patterns. I can start to see being able for the hands to jump back and forth between the two sides.

In composing this post, I think that I am starting to convince myself of the validity of the Megatar tuning… :rolleyes:

[jamsire]

Originally posted by TheEclectic
Megatar pushes their BassBottom tuning, but I would really like to see it in action. I can see where the BassBottom tuning would make it easier for a hand to go from the bass side to the melody side without having to adjust mental patterns. I can start to see being able for the hands to jump back and forth between the two sides.

In composing this post, I think that I am starting to convince myself of the validity of the Megatar tuning… :rolleyes:

I'm working on it!

[rpmartino]

The most flexible tuning I've found (at least for the music I want to do) is a mirrored crossed fourths tuning.

I like crossed tuning because it allows the fingers to be naturally extended, minimizing finger scrunching. And when the fingers are extended it also allows you to impart more body energy (hands, arms, etc.) into your playing rather than making your fingers do all the work. I suppose once a fretboard exceeds a certain width then it might make sense to have an uncrossed tuning, I play a Grand Stick which is relatively narrow.

I prefer the bass strings in 4ths to be "inverted" because I find chordal accompaniment is much easier, even though it's upside down relative to what bass/guitar players are used to. With the higher strings on the outside of the fretboard (going up in the same direction that the fingers are pointing) a nice variety of accompaniment techninques such as pull offs and scale runs (while holding down bass notes) are more natural to play.

Just my own experience and 2 cents...

[GaryOpenhill]

Originally posted by TheEclectic
Seeking knowledge of tuning, I turned to YouTube.com.

Most of what I saw was the Stick. I saw a few other touch guitar variants, but to my surprise I saw no Megatars – what’s up with that?

I noticed that in many instances that the hands were playing on their own side of the instrument (left hand, left side; right hand, right side). This seemed to open the door to playing melodies that were close to each other in tone – there were a few Bach pieces that I saw that really made this evident.

The “Uncrossed Mirrored fourths, bass in the middle” as described on http://www.clicmusic.be/tunings-tg.htm is what I originally envisioned and fits with the playing of the Bach pieces.

Megatar pushes their BassBottom tuning, but I would really like to see it in action. I can see where the BassBottom tuning would make it easier for a hand to go from the bass side to the melody side without having to adjust mental patterns. I can start to see being able for the hands to jump back and forth between the two sides.

In composing this post, I think that I am starting to convince myself of the validity of the Megatar tuning… :rolleyes:

Didnt someone link to dino haak at youtube?

Also, theres a clip inside this video with daiss playing the megatar in a duo. He plays uncrossed mirrored: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RIrhafmhAA&mode=related&search=


My advice: get one ASAP and try out tunings for yourself. Every day talking about one without actually owning one, is just wasting time! Maybe you'll end up with bass tuned in inverted min. fifths, and melody in maj. thirds, all double un-uncrossed converted lap-style, using only flat thumbs and crunched pinkys. The megatar stands beeing experimented on, and i would think the krappy does as well.

I know you'll end up with uncrossed fourths anyway. :P

[TheEclectic]

Good stuff, thanks.

I was under the impression that you bought the instrument according to the tuning, and that was that.

Perhaps going from fourths to fifths is ok, but I thought that to go from BassBottom to Uncrossed Mirrored Fourths was not possible without remaking the nut and rearragming the saddles.

Does one just ignore the optimal nut setup while experimenting? Coming from guitar, the nut can make or break the action and intonation and is not something to be taken lightly.

Perhaps the nut is not as importamt since the first fret is muted?

"I like crossed tuning because it allows the fingers to be naturally extended, minimizing finger scrunching. And when the fingers are extended it also allows you to impart more body energy (hands, arms, etc.) into your playing rather than making your fingers do all the work."

That is a very, very good point. I have put it to the test on my guitar and think you are right. It also explains the fluid motion I see when watching Tony Levin play. My fingers feel much more at ease and fluid when extended.

[rpmartino]

Originally posted by TheEclectic

Does one just ignore the optimal nut setup while experimenting? Coming from guitar, the nut can make or break the action and intonation and is not something to be taken lightly.

Perhaps the nut is not as importamt since the first fret is muted?


Yes, it is important that the nut is set up properly, and this an advantage for instruments that allow the nut height to be adjusted if you plan on doing some experimenting. Perhaps on instruments that use a more traditional nut it's possible to heat it up to soften the glue, remove it and glue on a new one.

[traktor]

Originally posted by TheEclectic
... Megatar pushes their BassBottom tuning, but I would really like to see it in action. I can see where the BassBottom tuning would make it easier for a hand to go from the bass side to the melody side without having to adjust mental patterns. I can start to see being able for the hands to jump back and forth between the two sides. … :rolleyes: The advantages of BassBottom tuning -- clarity of mind, high learning speed, high transference of what you already know -- are the same whether you use standard ('crossed'), or the 'uncrossed' string arrangement.

Whether you choose crossed or uncrossed positioning of the string sets is not a tuning, though sometimes it gets referred to as a tuning.

Crossed or uncrossed, in my opinion, is a matter of which you find more comfortable to your hands. I find uncrossed to be not very comfortable for my hands, and it seems to work best when playing with finger *tips*. Uncrossed feels 'cramped' to my hands. Standard string arrangement ('crossed') feels more comfortable to my hands, permits the forearm, back of hand, and fingers to fall in a (strong and healthy) straight line, and allows playing with the finger *flats*, which I find more comfortable, and providing greater tactile position feedback during play.

In my opinion, uncrossed is best for people with *very, very* small hands, and best for knowledgeable players who have already developed skill at playing all over the fretboard. (Because the hands can never run into each other.)

You can probably get an idea of which *feels* best to you by getting a board 4 inches wide and four feet tall, and duct-taping a strap to either side near the bottom, so that the top ('tuner') end is over your left shoulder and to the left of your head.

Then place your left palm facing your left nipple, but upon the front surface of your 'touch board'. Now, which feels better? To tap your fingertips on the left side of the board? Or to tap your finger-flats on the right side of the board?

This is a cheap and simple research that you can do in a couple of hours with a trip to the hardware/lumber store. The experiment is worth the expense and the time.

Let us know what you discover.

[traktor]

Originally posted by TheEclectic
.... I was under the impression that you bought the instrument according to the tuning, and that was that.
... Does one just ignore the optimal nut setup while experimenting? Coming from guitar, the nut can make or break the action and intonation and is not something to be taken lightly. Most of the touch-style instruments will permit you to change tunings.

However, as you say, to sound 'in tune' (in tone ation), one must reset the string saddles. This is not real hard to do, with standard intonation. (You can read how to do this in the Megatar Owner's Guide, which you can find in our website's Library under 'Documents.')

However, Mobius has licensed the Buzz Feiten Intonation System, which is a patented system of offsets done to both the 'nut' position and to the string saddles. (In our case, for lowest possible playing action we use a zero-fret rather than a nut, but this also permits changes in tunings without having to re-file the nut.)

It is my understanding that Mark Warr has also come around and now licenses the Feiten system, so I presume that current Warr guitars also have this system installed.

To set the string saddles for the Feiten system requires a laboratory strobe, and the Feiten formulas. So, to sound more 'in tune' than normal guitars or basses (or the other touch-style instruments), one must leave the intonation alone, unless you happen to be a Feiten-licensed manufacturer or guitar shop.

So what's a feller to do?

If you have any instrument which does not have this benefit, no problem. You can change the tuning, and then reset the string saddles to standard intonation in the new tuning.

If you have a Mobius or Warr instrument, then probably the best thing to do is take your best guess as to what tuning you'll like and get the instrument set up that way. Then, if you want to experiment with other tunings, at first leave the saddles alone, and string it up the new way. Then tune up *at the position your hands will play*.

Your instrument will not be properly intonated, but if you tune where your fingers are, it will sound OK for your experiment.

If you like the original tuning best, then swap back the original strings, and your Feiten-enhanced 'in tune' sound is right where you left it.

If you decide that you like the new tuning better, then you can either (a) abandon the Feiten system and reset your string saddles to standard intonation or (b) have the Feiten intonation installed on your new tuning by the factory or any Feiten-licensed guitar shop.

In the worst case, standard intonation, you'll have an instrument that plays 'in tune' as well as any guitar or bass or Stick. But in any case you absolutely can experiment with different tunings.

[GaryOpenhill]

Originally posted by TheEclectic
Good stuff, thanks.

I was under the impression that you bought the instrument according to the tuning, and that was that.

Perhaps going from fourths to fifths is ok, but I thought that to go from BassBottom to Uncrossed Mirrored Fourths was not possible without remaking the nut and rearragming the saddles.

Does one just ignore the optimal nut setup while experimenting? Coming from guitar, the nut can make or break the action and intonation and is not something to be taken lightly.

Perhaps the nut is not as importamt since the first fret is muted?


I don't know, but the megatar use a zero fret, so the nut is there to hold the strings in the right place and doesn't affect the action at all. The nut is filed in a way ( at least mine is) that makes it possible to put any string anywhere.
Yeah, you will of course have to re-set the action height at the bridge and the scale length at the bridge, but this is no biggy, using the wrench that comes witht the megatar. Traktor usually sets the megatar up with the buzz feiten settings (and you can't get your hands on the that formula), but i just had the normal settings on mine since i knew i would change them anyway. I have also filed my own nut for the megatar, while experimenting with string spacing, but i now keep the original one because i find it to be the best for me.

I got mine shipped with the bassbottom tuning, because i wasn't sure about what i wanted. I tried many tunings and many gauges, and i've ended up on playing parallell fourths. It's the uncrossed version of bassbottom, except that i tune both sides from C, so they match, but of couse one octave apart. (i guess it's called matched parallel fourths, at least thats what jim wright calls it)
The action is about 1 mm over the 12th fret without buzzing, and that is good enough for me, and i don't know if people usually have it lower than that!

BTW, I know Krappy also can put in zero frets, because he is building one for me right now using one.

[traktor]

Of all the questions asked by new visitors to the world of touch-style, the question of tuning comes up the most. As previous guitar or bass players or as keyboardists, most of us never had to think about tuning.

However, do realize that you are observing evolution in action. In addition, the expansion of instrument building by more manufacturers and by home-brewers is very similar to what I saw years ago when I'd motorcycle down to the Stanford Linear Accellerator Center, to the big auditorium for the monthly meeting of the Homebrew Computer Club.

There were manufacturers there, at the beginning of the development of the 'micro computer,' as we called it then, and some of those manufacturers have come and gone (the Sol, the Astral, the Imsai.). There were luminaries -- Captain Crunch, Lee Felsenstein -- and one day I saw two scruffy hippies in the lobby. They weren't even on the program and they were demonstrating a new color board. Wow! Like, color! On a microcomputer! Though I wondered if they'd ever make anything of themselves, with their odd names and the odd name of their company: Jobs, Wozniak, Apple.

In the debates about whether to use motorola's 6800 chip or the fantastic 8080, in the debates about busses and peripherals, there was a great confusion.

But, as you see, as you sit at your computer today, things get sorted out, for this is the nature of evolution.

You are observing the progress of evolution, here in this thread, today. This is what it looks like. And some day, when nearly all of us are playing some tuning that most everybody plays, we'll marvel and think back to the time, and we'll say,

"Why, I remember, sonny, when ...."

[GaryOpenhill]

Huh? traktor managed to post two long post before i even got to do one short. I'm so slow.

[rjgoos]

I have both uncrossed and cross-handed instruments. The following statements are my opinions, that many disagree with, and I take no offense when people do.

The design of something to accomplish any complex task requires trade-offs.

Cross-handed play opens up the hand, which improves dexterity, but at the risk of stress to the wrists, especially the left wrist. Also, sometimes the hands just can't reach far enough, if the neck is wide and the hands are small.

Uncrossed puts lots less stress on the wrists, but at the risk of closing the hand too much, cramping up the hands and reducing dexterity. This is especially true when an uncrossed tuning is applied to a neck form-factor intended for cross-handed play.

With my old joints, I can play a lot longer uncrossed than crossed, but I cannot play every left-hand lick uncrossed that I can crossed. But...with uncrossed, the entire fretboard is available to both hands.

What I am trying to say is this....with most complex design problems, there are trade-offs.

Again, just the opinion of one player.

[traktor]

Originally posted by GaryOpenhill
Huh? traktor managed to post two long post before i even got to do one short. ... This is because you are in Scandinavia, and the sun is much further advanced in the sky. Naturally, because it's late in the day, you have become tired. Whereas here in California it is still early, and I am fresh and relaxed from my nightly repose. Yeah. Probably that's it.

[GaryOpenhill]

Originally posted by traktor
This is because you are in Scandinavia, and the sun is much further advanced in the sky. Naturally, because it's late in the day, you have become tired. Whereas here in California it is still early, and I am fresh and relaxed from my nightly repose. Yeah. Probably that's it.

Ahh...to live in California. There are cities here that will not see the sun until next year sometime. It's a sad fact. No wonder we're slow. Nothing another five cups of black coffee won't fix. Well, i'll be moving next year so....

[jamsire]

To live in New York - where you just can't sleep!

[TheEclectic]

Thanks for all the info, it has all been very helpful.

I took a 2x4 and did some experimenting and learned much. That was an excellent suggestion.

I also did some experimenting with my electric in the upright position.

I think that I can go either way with tuning - BaseBottom or Mirrored Fourths. I can tell that I will play mostly crossed - uncrossed (on the finger tips) is much harder than I thought it would be.

I tried contacting the guy with the BassBottom Megatar for sale on this forum a few days ago, but have not heard back from him. I like the Megatar because it will be fairly easy for me to add a GraphTech Ghost Hexaphonic MIDI system in the futrure should I decide that playing touch is for me.

If he does not respond soon then I will set the wheels in motion with Krappy guitars.

I still have not landed on a tuning. I am going to the music store today to play a left handed guitar to see how Mirrored Fourths might feel. However, from playing the same repetatvie patterns with both hands on my electric, I was very suprised to the find BassBottom motions were easier than Mirrered Fourth motions.

I will be sure to let everyone know my decision, proably by weeks end.

Thanks again. The advice on this forum has proven very helpful.

[TheEclectic]

I played some left handed guitars and basses just now and wow, was it hard. I focused on the C-major sacale and I never got profecient with it - with either the left hand or right hand. I kept wanting to move like on a right handed instrument, even when I was concentrating.

I am evidently more programmed than I thought - even in my right hand. :rolleyes:

It is now decided - BassBottom tunning for my first go at touch guitar.

Thanks everyone for thier insights.